This photograph was taken in Tripoli. The bodies on the ground are corpses!
This image may better represent what men really are!
What are we? This question has been asked many times. I’m not sure that we are any closer to a definitive answer.
Like chameleons, humans adjust to the circumstances they find themselves in. But chameleons, while they can adjust their skin color, don’t have human traits.
Human traits can lead to incest, rape, brutality, genocide, murder, child molestation, torture, massacres, hatred, depravity, etc.
Human traits can also lead to compassion, generosity, self-sacrifice, the creation of music, love, nobility, etc.
The duality of human nature is stark, frightening, contradictory.
It enabled the gas ovens, the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan, the genocide of Pol Pot, etc.
Will it enable nuclear war one day?
We are in the human race.
And we are losing.
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David G Reply:
August 28th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
Couldn’t agree more, RealityZone. The odds were always stacked against us!
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Could you be confusing psychopaths/sociopaths with the rest of humanity?
I honestly doubt that all humans have the potential for “incest, rape, brutality, genocide, murder, child molestation, torture, massacres, hatred, depravity, etc.” As a matter of fact the majority of humans do not have those kind of genes (DNA). However and that is where the confusion may be: those psychopaths/sociopaths although a minority all wind up in positions of power, be it in politics, finance, business or in illegal activities such as drug, slave trade etc…
I submit to you that if all humanity had the same DNA, psychopaths/sociopaths would have been eliminated/exterminated by now. The problem with humanity as a whole is that it hopes that the system will take care of them not realizing that the psychopaths/sociopaths are in control of the system.
Can’t wait to hear you on this one.
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Grace Reply:
August 30th, 2011 at 1:34 am
Michel, You must read about the Stanford prison experiment. Normal, clean cut, brightest of the bright -Stanford students were part of an experiment that ended up so horrifying the experiment was cancelled before it was even finished.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
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Michel, I think it’s you who is confused. Psychopaths, like Hitler, required a large number of supporters who went along with his madness, who carried out the orders willingly, perhaps even enjoyed the carnage and the brutality.
Take off your rose-colored glasses and see the world as it is!
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Just to make this interesting.
First, I was hoping you would address the content of my message as it brings a different light to your comment and I think is worth the discussion.
Second please note that I did not say you were confused but that in this case you might be confusing two types of humans. Very different. As far as glasses and seeing the world as it is, there are not rose-colored and I think I do. Basically the same as you but with a few nuances.
This being said I do not wish to enter a pissing contest. As we both know respect works both ways.
Now, as for further explanation on the nuance I was trying to share with you, I understand what you are saying about the followers. But the way you put it, the psychopaths and sociopaths get a free pass as you seem to be mixing them up with humans that follow the leader with or without any conviction but out of fear for their own life/well being.
In my view, we need to make a difference between followers which are numerous and psychopaths/sociopaths that are much less numerous but have a lot more power to impose their mind set on the followers.
To help understand this, think of religion. The bosses vs the followers. Change the bosses and you will change the followers mind set. Because the followers will follow whoever they beleive will bring them to heaven (metaphor). If you follow Imans, you think and act one way. If you follow priest you think and act an other way.
Another way to say this: a smal minority beleive they are GOD and the majority just follow what ever they are told that GOD want by the bosses living in fear of retribution.
Again I suggest to you that most humans do not have the DNA to do all the evil you describe but the psychopaths/sociopaths do have the right DNA.
So my conclusion is that the real problem on this planet is not the duality of mankind but the fact that the psychopaths/sociopaths have very little opposition and that the great majority of humans are followers.
PS 1) Psychopaths/sociopaths are not afraid of dying but all the followers are. Consequently, their action are very differently motivated.
PS 2) Personaly I am not impressed by either group so logically I am not impress by humanity as a whole. However, I think it is very important not to confuse the two types of DNA and to identify the real enemy.
PS 3) A wise man told me one day: there are those that are in the parade and those that are on the sidelines and look at the parade. The great majority are looking at the parade.
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David G Reply:
August 29th, 2011 at 12:11 pm
Could I suggest that you checkout this link, then get back to me, Michel. Keep in mind that similar results have been achieved when those carrying out the experiments were not authority figures!
http://www.ralphmag.org/milgrimZN.html
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Grace Reply:
August 30th, 2011 at 1:50 am
“psychopaths/sociopaths that are much less numerous but have a lot more power to impose their mind set on the followers”
Having grown up with a psychopathic brother, I will agree with you on this one. They impose an intense burden on those around them and are not only not bothered because they don’t care about the well being of others. They even enjoy the pain they cause. They are dangerous people.
“the psychopaths/sociopaths have very little opposition and that the great majority of humans are followers.”
This is where you are wrong. There is tremendous opposition to the psychopath/ sociopath. It starts in the family. Mostly the family lives in fear, but they oppose his wrong ways. The psycho knows he is different and live VERY guarded lives. They still cause harm everywhere they go, but they have learned to disguise it well. They tend to be smarter than average as well. Making debates unwinnable and there is no penetrating the “guards.” That fine balance they achieve to allow them to exist because they know deep down they don’t deserve to live and are suicidal underneath. They take all threats more personally than anyone else would because their lives are relatively fragile. Hell hath fury if you crack their veneer. I live far away from my brother and don’t tell him where I live. I could have sued him and taken his ranch that was bought with my house, but I knew the danger that would pose me and my family. I am no psycho and I am no follower either. We share the same DNA. Your theories are immature and lack real World knowledge.
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Michel Reply:
August 30th, 2011 at 3:48 am
Thanks for sharing.
The case you make is quite disturbing, no doubt. However, it is irrelevant on many levels. When I refer to psychopath, I refer to those who acheive power in society. Those who control Mafia, slave trading organization, lying politicians, crooked business leaders, the kind of people running the world today. With the DNA metaphor, I am suggesting that they share a special DNA that brings them to fruition and in position of power.
I submit to you that these are the people that leave us the impression that all humanity is fucked up and that the “follow the leader” syndrome inherent in the other humans make them appear to be accomplices and the same kind of humans which they are not.
You say you are not a follower but at the same time you admit going along with the ranch business because you are scared of him. That is the definition of a follower. You will not oppose him. You will drink the kool-aid he serves you.
Sorry but on a much smaller scale your experience just proves my point. You will follow and not oppose so the psychopath gets away with it and stays in power. That is what I am talking about.
My last point is that you are not a psycho but a follower showing that there are at least two fundamental types of humans.
You say: Your theories are immature and lack real World knowledge.
First you just added credence to my “theory” point and as for the real world knowledge how could you possibly know?
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Grace Reply:
August 30th, 2011 at 6:51 am
You said the psychos you were talking about are leaders in industry. How did you make the assumption that my brother is not? In fact, that is his cover – he is a leader in industry. His veneer has gotten thinner with age so he gets into trouble when he interfaces with people. He is extremely gifted over the phone so know all he does is talk on the phone and his employees do everything else and he makes more money than probably all of us put together.
I am irrelevant? You are full of opinions today.
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Michel Reply:
August 30th, 2011 at 9:19 am
As you open up about your brother, you become more relevant. Not that you were irrelevant before.
You say: How did you make the assumption that my brother is not?
What have I written that makes you think that I was assuming the above?
What is your reference on this : “Keep in mind that similar results have been achieved when those carrying out the experiments were not authority figures!” The one you gave me does have authority figures.
You reference is dated 2000. The first such experiment were done when I was 30-35 years old which is more than 3 decades ago. At the time, I was shocked. I knew little about humans and came to the wrong conclusions. Today I know better.
BTW your reference, interestingly does not suggest the duality you talk about but demonstrate the humanity of the individual while at the same time the “follow the leader” syndrome.
On your end please look up psychopath and sociopath and tell me that is not the DNA of the world leaders!!! Also tell me that you still think that all humans are subject to this kind of abnormal form of humanity!!!
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David G Reply:
August 29th, 2011 at 3:21 pm
Michel, when I did Psychology at University, the point of studying Milgram was that when he carried out these experiments, he eventually pretended to be just a member of a fictitious company yet people, in the main, still applied the full range of volts when asked to do so.
We also know that Germans by the thousands did the work of killing people in the gas ovens. The following link gives another example of massacres carried out willingly by human beings.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3580247.stm
I certainly think that most humans are capable of inhumanity given the ‘right’ circumstances. Watch children in a kindergarten or a school yard for an hour or so.
Cheers.
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I give up. Sadly you miss the whole point.
Cheers
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David G Reply:
August 29th, 2011 at 5:13 pm
Michel, you are entitled to hold whatever view you want regarding human beings even if most of it is wishful thinking.
If you want to see humanity in the actions of people as they (mistakenly) torture other humans, then so be it. If you want to call them ‘followers’ who are innocent and entirely disconnected from their actions, what can I do?
On the television today there was harrowing footage from Libya of a room in which 50 rebels had been burned alive. I felt sick.
I have no illusions about what humans are capable of. The woman in America who killed another pregnant woman in a distant town, cut the baby from her stomach, then took the child back to her home town and called the baby hers shows clearly what humans are or can be!
Let us agree to disagree. I didn’t make the human race. I just report what I see, warts and all!
Cheers.
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Grace Reply:
August 30th, 2011 at 2:01 am
Michel, clearly you only understand black/ white thinking. You know what is black and you know what is white.. You allow no grey area and that is your blindspot.
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Michel Reply:
August 30th, 2011 at 3:55 am
Trying to insult me does no make the discussion progress.
If you had added your analysis and justified your comment, I would gladly give it some thought and clarified what you feel need clarification.
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Grace Reply:
August 30th, 2011 at 6:37 am
After reading what you wrote, I wrote my impression that yours being one of black/ white thinking. Sorry if that is an insult. I will back it up now with what led me to this impression. Psychos/ sociopaths vs followers. Grey area may include the creativity it takes to simply stay alive around this person. Having survived one as this, I will forever be on-guard around that person. I did not follow him. I rejected all the ugliness about him. Now my job is to protect my son from him. How that makes me a follower. allower I do not know? As a matter of fact my whole family chose him over me. Guess why? They know what side their bread is buttered on. He is a wealthy business owner who employs many and lives behind a locked gate. I lost my family because of him. What does that make me? I locate psychos when I meet them and they hate me because I have the potential to expose them – their greatest fear.
Also another example came to mind and that was of the Rwandan massacre. Half of society brutally murdered the other half. People that had lived side by side for generations – killed with machetes no less. Did an entire people – the Hutus become temporarily mad as they hacked, slashed, ripped at the bloody flesh of their Tutsi countrymen, women and children? Were they all followers of a psycho? Or did something in the human nature allow such horror and we must all be careful and make wise choices?
“Euthanasists concluded that 80% of humans should be eliminated from the planet to make it a better place. Not real good company for a person such as yourself. You should read up on the movement and find out where these “smart” people are located in the food chain.”
Euthanists mainly consist of the Ruling Class and as George Carlin said, (paraphrasing) It’s a club and you and me, we ain’t in it! So you regard the Barons of industry and war economy the “smart” people?
Gee and not to be too insulting,
“Your basic assumption about humans is dead wrong and its superficial nature puts you in the most vile company. Think about it and research it for a while then we can talk again.”
Gee,’ you and the company you keep are vile, but let’s talk again?’
You just sullied your own argument with that and it makes one reluctant to discuss the finer points that may have validity. The subject does require more examination.
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Michel Reply:
August 30th, 2011 at 9:16 am
Thank you for the clarification you wrote but it still does not explain your statement about black & white at least not clearly.
Part of the problem is that all the examples cited by you or David so far require individual analysis. Lumping everything into one melting pot to come to a general conclusion does not help any understanding of what the real enemy is or what is really at work here. Sorry I just do not buy the theory that all humans are subject to incest, rape, brutality, genocide, murder, child molestation, torture, massacres, hatred, depravity. That is too simplistic to be useful as a concept.
You say: Euthanists mainly consist of the Ruling Class and as George Carlin said, (paraphrasing) It’s a club and you and me, we ain’t in it! So you regard the Barons of industry and war economy the “smart” people?
You will notice that “smart” is in quote. Yes, I am talking about the ruling class and although we are not in the Club, it does not mean that what you can do is not decided by the Club. Fact of the matter they run your life and considering what is happening across the world today, they will more and more unless the followers rebel.
Yes I keep my point of view simple by limiting myself to two categories of humans. If it makes it easier to understand please assume we have a 15 % exception to the rule. Once the concept is understood you can nuance it all you want without loosing the essential of the concept.
About my idol George Carlin may is he rest in peace. He also said that he was a spectator of humanity having given up on it. I also gave up on humanity many decades ago. However, I am still interested in figuring out what is going on, hence my psychopath/follower approach. It is an effort to better understand human behavior. As David said, it is not scientifically proven at least not to his satisfaction but the elements of proof are there. If you think about it who would finance and publish such a theory?
You say: As a matter of fact my whole family chose him over me. Guess why? They know what side their bread is buttered on.
I am sorry about that but it also brings gas to my fire. People will follow psychopath every time because they know that is where “Heaven” is. I have introduced the 15% exception and you are probably part of the 15%. Not a follower like the others but also convinced that your “Heaven” is staying away and not opposing the psychopath.
I submit to you that having lived with a psychopath give you a much better insight into the subject than most of us who are only privy to video and political campaigns.
That you would be an exception does not take away from the validity of my point of view. Quite the contrary most of what you have shared just reinforce it.
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Jackal, I’m holding your comment in moderation. You seem to be confusing New Matilda with Dangerous Creation.
Please disentangle them. While I support New Matilda, my blog is my own creation.
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Please explain, Jackal, I’m holding your comment in moderation. You seem to be confusing New Matilda with Dangerous Creation.
You & Mickel are talking about psychopaths/sociopaths our leaders/ some leaders/ whatever.
All i’m saying, I read an article elsewhere about Bipolar amongst previous leaders, current leaders, lots of Lawyer types as leaders while law students seam to have problems according to this article. Freely available material, we are descussing, I thought.
Enlighten me?
What does in moderation mean? You have the finger on the flush button.
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David G Reply:
August 30th, 2011 at 7:33 am
Jackal, I subscribe to your notion of trying to get people to connect the dots. It’s what my blog is all about.
I’m not sure just how a quote from Examinator achieves this end. Let’s start again and if you would be careful which sources you quote, I’d appreciate it.
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Speaking of subliminally what we really look like..check out the original painting that was hidden underneath the one everyone sees.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255466/Mysterious-image-snake-appears-400-year-old-painting-Queen-Elizabeth-I.html
Just a touch of the Dorian Grey.
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David G Reply:
August 30th, 2011 at 4:07 pm
Grace, that was an interesting link. Perhaps the Mona Lisa is not alone!
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Grace, thanks for straightening Michel out. However, I’m sure he or she has learned nothing and will continue with his psychopath/follower construct (which is not supported by the evidence) but that’s his (or her) problem! Some people just can’t accept that humans are capable of extremes of behaviour. It makes them feel uncomfortable!
Take care!
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