Is It Time For ‘The American Revolution’?
Barricades are easily built! Manning them with heroes is harder.
Friends, given the financial and political crisis that is emerging in America, one that is impacting on the whole world, it seems to me that their system is broke and it needs to be abandoned and a new one put in its place.
In France, prior to their Revolution, the system was broke also. The Royals had bankrupted the place and were living a decadent, immoral, elitist lifestyle while the poor peasants starved. Eventually the peasants, stirred up then led by some University radicals, got the show on the road and within a short time had marched the Royals to the guillotine and set up a democracy by the people and for the people which has endured to this day.
In America, the Robber Barons, who are the Neo Royalty and have bankrupted the country with their excessive borrowing and risky investments, are living a decadent lifestyle using money they’ve stolen from the peasants. Meanwhile, the country falls down around their ears.
The Politicians, who are beholden to the New Royalty, have set up a pseudo-democratic political system that is run by the wealthy for the benefit of the wealthy. They have continued on with the farce that has always been American foreign policy and have engaged in more foolish, unwinable wars (that America cannot afford) also using borrowed money. It is said that America is now largely owned by China.
Currently, the situation in America is dire. Banks are falling over like dominoes, the Democrats and the Republicans are in a state of terminal confusion. The Treasury is currently being run by a man whose expertise brought about the end of a major financial institution. And the President, a would-be dictator who frequently gibbers, is a man whose I.Q. is about the same size as his shoe. And those who would replace him are nearly as mediocre. Worst of all, the contagion in America is spilling over to other countries and no one knows whether this will lead to a world-wide depression.
The solution? The American Revolution, one led by some radicals (but not from American Universities because they are little more than Vocational Training Centres) and supported by some brave, non-couch potato American peasants who are daily becoming poorer. All the peasants need to be convinced of is that the status quo can be changed and that they can do it. The precedent has been set. Viva La France!
It’s a simple matter then to build some barricades, march on Washington, march on Billionaire’s Row, string up or jail all the spivs, carpetbaggers and political poltroons, sell their assets and distribute them to the poor, then sit down and, with a nice cup of coffee, plan a whole new Constitution and economic system. The new system should be one that is for the benefit of all the people not a small elite group of money-grubbers and self-seekers who will do anything (including waging endless wars, torture, taking away human rights, rigging elections, etc) to retain their monopoly.
Yes, once the American Revolution is over, the whole world will heave a sigh of relief and, following New America’s lead, peace might finally stand a chance of becoming a reality.
well, many of us already have the guns
good luck promoting that to a nation of prozacked, ambiened, hedonistic, egotistical joe six packs.
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Betmo, I could see you dressed as Liberty leading the true revolutionaries forward.
Viva La Betmo!
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Hej dears, I m afraid REVOLUTION is what the powers to are and to be want.. you make a good point of china. it also seems that Chinese suit the profile of an ideal universal citizen, in their obedience and submission, as long as you feed them well..
But, Revolution? Get your guns, start fighting, and next thing you know is Martial Law. Under Martial Law, I hardly see those guns having any chance. Civil war is not what we want.
I have a different solution. Suitable even for prozac, fat, lazy individuals. even more so.
GLOBAL STRIKE.
Have you seen US markets after 700 billion? They re falling to their worst levels.. Have you seen the congress interviewing Fuld? Well, puppet show. Fuld took home 460 million in 8 years.. YET HE IS SAYING THAT THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM SHALL BE REFORMED. He has the arrogance to claim he knows the solution. Why hasn t he spoke earlier? damn it. Now they ll pretend they ll punish him. He ll still enjoy his millions. And the MARKETS WILL BE REGULATED AGAIN.. BUT IN A WAY WHICH WILL AGAIN AFFECT THE SMALL INVESTOR WHO ALREADY LOST HIS MONEY> AND WILL BE FURTHER RESTRICTED. The big sharks will be business as usual.
Damn it.
STRIKE. GLOBAL STRIKE.
If you fight, they ll fight you back, and your doomed. If you stop workin, they ll not be able to force you work. It IS YOUR LEGAL RIGHT TO REFUSE TO.
If you fight you are a danger to nation.
If you sto working they ll not be able to import whole china to substitute you. and they still need you and us to buy their crap.
STOP WORKING. In a structured, aligned way, millions of individuals, for days and weeks. Then you ll see a difference.
A corrupted system will thrive on fight and destroy the fighters.
A corrupted system will fail if buyers and workers chose to stop being part of it.
I ve learned this the hard way in the working place. Fighting is not the solution, fighting is what they are waiting for.
GLOBAL STRIKE.
RETURN TO LOCALLY PRODUCED.
What do you think, dear David?
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Adina, I reckon that they’ll adopt a position of: if you don’t work, don’t buy, that’s fine, then you’ll starve. Nothing will break the will of would-be revolutionaries like starvation.
While I, a pacifist, agree that a peaceful approach would be best, I can’t see the rapacious Neo Royals and right-wing politicians giving up their position of power and privilege easily. They’ve invested too much in it. And, without qualm, they would use the military against their citizens I agree.
However, if a situation is bankrupt both politically and economically then strong action is required to sweep the old aside and seek renewal.
Regards.
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I know, I know, people won t last long, strikers will break the strike for self preservation.. But I m so against the fighting . I still can t see it as solution. In fight, people stand no chance, as they are outnumbered and inferior means.
And the outcome of a sure defeat will be terrible. Just imagine the antiterrorism rules extended to the level of counting each citizen as potential terrorist..
I m afraid to think what the outcome of the fight will be, and further more, the level of legislative restriction of freedom for the future generation when even small talk like ours may be considered terrorist activity..
How will it be to live in that world..
Going back to outright slavery times.. under the pretext of working for the “people” and “peace”.. and “safety” giving up personal freedom for that..
I don t know..
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Keep in mind, Adina, that the determination of the Vietnamese people vanquished the might of America, the world’s military superpower.
And determined people who have right on their side and who fight from the shadows are difficult to defeat.
There are different kinds of barricades!
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Dear David, Vietnam? victory after 10 years, with more than 2 million people killed both sides? young american soldiers.. sent by their country to fight.. deserting was not an option, and millions of vietnamese dead, with Vietnam today “enjoying” their “reconstruction” with IMF and World Bank funds… hence… where is the victory in that???
Would you have such a war in your own country? Would you let your kids go through it?
Fighting from shadow with today’s intelligence/technology, with rifles ? In the sub-urban “jungle” which is not likely to be unknown territory to the military power?
Do you really believe such battle can be won?
I wish I would have your strength to believe that having right on your side makes you win.
But again, looking at the history, i see just re-distribution of wealth, with the key players un touched, and us, small fish, doing the same mistake over and over again, under different names. That s what I fear will happen, one more time.
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Adina, I agree with your points. The little people have been screwed over and over right down through history.
I keep hoping the cycle can be broken, that what intelligence we have may one day carry us beyond the Law of the Jungle imperative. But what we are as humans is what stops us evolving beyond this primitive, savage reality.
I have argued for genetic engineering. I have argued for the use of drugs to pacify us, to curb our violent nature. But our destructive, greedy instincts always prevail.
But something inside me keeps hoping that we can solve our problems.
It’s probably wishful thinking.
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No, dear David.
Yours is not wishful thinking, it is HOPE. At least you are THINKING, and sharing,and trying to find some ways, be they imperfect or not, feasible or not..at least you are aware about the real problem.
I find that if every one in our population would follow your What can we do? 10 steps, little by little.. day by day, our hope will grow.
I practice them.
And I propagate them to others.
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I would even add one point to the 10. Maybe too late for human kind to do that.
Human, Reconsider please, before you reproduce yourself in this imperfect world, if you have so much love to share, why not adopt.. and if you still chose to bring new fish into the big big pond..
11. EDUCATE KIDS TO NON-COMPETITIVENESS FROM BIRTH.
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Adina,
Teaching non-competition? I’ve read of a few very small African and Pacific Rim tribes that were non-competitive. They were only non-competitive until they crossed paths with other tribes – then it got ugly…
Q
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All of us to a man and women have already started the revolution! The people that take up the fight to the “MAN” are already listed on a government file some where of known dissidents, I am more sure of that, than anything
Oh yes lady’s and gentlemen the fight has already begun, and the last ten years have been very productive indeed.
Foisting George Bush, Tony Blair, John Howard, Vladimir Putin, and a whole coterie of rotten to the core politicians on us at this time in our evolution, was better than all of the right wing propaganda,and the LIES that we have all suffered for the last ten years..
I despair as my eyes open in the morning, but even as the world implodes,I believe the penny is slowly beginning to drop.And yes things must get a lot worse to get better,but the man has gone to far this time, and it is showing.
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Phill has taken the point that i was going to make and you mentioned earlier on that the key to any revolution is the military. Without them on your side a revolution will be strangled at birth.
There are lots of alternative systems of government but the greatest chance of forcing a more fairer system would be to tinker with the one we have so the electorate has a greater say and the rulers are more culpable for their actions. I will work it in to a post this evening, Mythbusters has just come on.
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Alas, a Revolution is not in the cards, all the above reasons notwithstanding. According to the Army Times 2 weeks ago, for the first time in American history an entire Division of the U.S. Army is being moved from Iraq to be permanently stationed in North America for “law enforcement” purposes. Wish I had the link, too lazy to go get it. Very little main-stream news coverage. However, since Bush gutted the Posse Comitatus Act a few years ago, it is now perfectly legal for the US Armed Forces to be used within the US against US citizens.
Armed revolution by American citizens? And how many of them have the gumption to get off their couches and risk being shot by the North American Army division, or indefinitely imprisoned after being called an “enemy combatant” by the government, for rising up?
Very few, certainly not enough to take over the country. It seems to me that the imploding economy, the skyrocketing costs of living, the huge loss in jobs, and the outright shredding of civil liberties is WHY the administration has stationed an Army division to patrol the continental U.S. in the first place – maybe they know the conditions are ripe for an uprising by the populace.
The Germans didn’t rise up against their fascist government in the 30′s, they played along nicely and were even wholeheartedly supportive of the new fascist dictatorship by and large. We now have a fascist government here in America, and most of the sheep are good Germans as well.
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I found the link, here:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/army_homeland_090708w/
(sorry, I don’t know how to make it into a hyperlink, you’ll have to copy and paste it into your browser)
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I largely agree with your post. Indeed, I often draw the same parallels myself, in terms of being a society showing all the signs of waiting for a revolution. All the signs are there.
I’d only take issue with one word in your post.
Replace ‘American’ with ‘Global’.
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Q, when I did sociology at Uni. I read about a tribe where kudos was gained by how much you gave to others. I guess it’s a matter of what is taught.
Phill, perhaps we have to endure a time of great instability in order to achieve a better world. Problem is, like slime in a pond, the scum always floats to the top.
Lucy, the powerful and the rich will not give up their unfair advantage without a fight. They don’t think like we do. They care only about themselves.
Demon, that Bush, a right-wing dictator, is prepared to use the military against his own people is unsurprising. When it comes to the crunch however, will the soldiers kill their own countrymen and women?
Crushed, where America leads, others with similar minds follow. The bottom line is that a very small group of parasitic manipulators in each country are controlling things and trying to retain the badly flawed status quo.
We must cut away the cancers of capitalism, elitism, imperialism, religious fundamentalism and nationalism and allow our world to unite and heal.
Thanks for all your comments. Peace.
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We are in a pickle and the cops are equipped so Darth Vaderish now, not to mention the military as Demonstorm above describes. I follow Paul Craig Roberts’s commentary.
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Swan, the Darth Vaderish image has been carefully cultivated to instill fear.
I point again to the French Revolution. If the peasants had feared the military the Revolution wouldn’t have eventuated and they’d still be living under the heel of the corrupt aristocracy.
Those who rule America now are the new Aristocracy. They can be swept away too!
300 million people can’t be controlled by a handful of police and a Division of the U.S. Army.
Cheers.
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I never owned a gun because I figured I am not a killer at heart and would falter, having then a gun used against me. I appreciate you all hashing out a solution. These are the things I think about. All the plastics in our environment create increased estrogen as it alters endocrine systems. Estrogen could make people less warring. I personally try to stay away from plastic. Seems we are in a race with time to bring about proper change in a dignified manner. The helicopters go over our house every day now. Used to be on occasion; and sometimes with an accompanying loud speaker that you can hear a mans voice even with the windows closed. It used to be when a child was missing or abducted. It is horribly upsetting to witness/ hear. Police to protect and serve or simply to remind us of their presence and power, because it is now so frequent and without the loudspeaker announcements. Sometimes I think it is all urban training, nothing going on. Of course, with this economy, all kinds of things are going on in the name of survival of the fittest. I always want to remember freer and happier times.
My version of “revolution” are personal steps towards freedom. I would love to be a part of a greater revolution, a peaceful one.
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I would like to be part of a peaceful revolution too, Grace. But it’s not the human way. The ‘haves’ are not going to relinquish their stranglehold on power and wealth without a fight.
And we, the people, either fight for our rights, for equality, for fairness or we will continue to be exploited and treated with contempt.
Cheers.
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1. “the key to any revolution is the military. Without them on your side a revolution will be strangled at birth.”
As has been said, Americans have guns. Also, the American military won’t attack American veterans. In the event of such an unthinkable scenario where an order would be given to shoot Joe Six Packs, the military would simply defect. They’re not going to shoot their own brothers.
And the great thing about revolutions is that the rising guns don’t have to be better than the ruling tanks and airplanes, just kinda close. Look at Iraq. The crazies there don’t need tanks or planes to be a pain in the ass to a first class army-navy-airforce.
-2. It isn’t as if the guys in power haven’t been elected. The problem isn’t the guys in charge, it’s the voters. The problem is with the many; the dumb men they pick are the symptom not the cause.
-3. This is quite a Utopian vision. If only the world was perfect. Oh… but then we wouldn’t need a revolution in the first place…
-Nog
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Nog, part of the problem is that most of the voters have not been educated properly, have not been taught how to think. Instead they’ve been indoctrinated.
That’s why they don’t vote in a rational way (those that vote) and why they’re so easily manipulated.
We who can think must show the way.
Cheers.
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war, revolution.. important thing is the type of war and revolution: economic. someone mentioned instead of thinking ‘america’ think ‘global’. we are a global family.
the economic power of the world is shifting from west to east. this return to the normality of pre 1700′s IS the revolution. with this we will see vast changes in society globally. i personally believe society will then start to resemble this utopian vision that so many dream of.
the american revolution HAS to be, in part, a top down flow of SUBMISSIVE behavior. as other people mentioned, a violent uprising especially within america shouldnt be an option. submissive behavior is key in avoiding global conflicts at this very critical time in the ‘global economic revolution’. the bottom up american revolution is the loud public voice calling for their leaders to accept these new winds of change. just watched the 2nd US debate. looks like neither would share my view, scary considering the mess theyre in. accepting these winds of change will still see america prosper as part of the global family but they will not hold the same economic might as before.
as with so many families the youth are taken care of by their parents as they grow up and in turn take over the household and care for their elders in their senior years. there is much the youth still learns from their seniors and vice versa. obviously this circle of life continues. i hope you see how the world environment is so crucially similar. it is time for developing world powers to take the reigns of the global environment. and support from their ‘seniors’ would play a critical role in their success and therefore the success of unified international community.
i dont think the seniors of the world, at least one, are willing to relinquish power and be submissive and this will lead to conflict. reminds me of a pride of lions.
so is the global community going to act like a pride of wild lions or human families.
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To the many of us who believe our “brothers” in army won t shoot their mothers and sister.. I believed it too. but then I had a harsh wake up call. Please see what happened in the argentina of the new millenium in 2001, Please see. Media did not pay too much attention to it. Please see the Mother’s Plaza, where the women begged the army and squads not to kill civilians. And yet the civilians were shot in daylight by Army, police and by night by local opportunistic gangs which came with the collapse. They were starved,shot, raped, robbed,killed. Who thinks that these things cannot happen in the new millenium anywhere else.. maybe you think that an US brothers in army have much more conscience than an Argentinian soldier.. ?.
Please , go youtube and see with your eyes what happened in argentina. 1999-200… amazing. Unreal. Unbeliavable. I beg you, do not even consider revolting as a solution. Civil war is wanted by the powers to be. They have always made money and achieved more power with it.Civil war will restrict human freedom even further over the globe. Please, think twice.
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I do not believe the Army would fire live rounds against civilians – not at first anyway. In the article I linked and several others it describes their being trained in the use of “crowd control” methods and technology, specifically rubber bullets, tasers, gas grenades, and a new weapon that emits a type of audio wave that is fired at a crowd and causes severe nausea to the point of incapacitation.
I believe that – again, initially – the troops will use these “softer” methods against an unruly populace (just as they used them in Minnesota at the GOP convention). Thus incapacitated, they are simply picked up off the ground and hauled to one of the mass detention centers currently being built by Halliburton all across the U.S. (I have linked to that article in a previous post as well). No problemo.
As to the belief the military wouldn’t hurt its “brothers” – good grief, think again. Look at the police in Denver and St. Paul and what they did to their “brothers,” and elderly and women. They had no compunction about it. Why? This is the key: the government has been building up the rhetoric about how anyone who speaks out against the government/President is a traitor and un-American and unpatriotic. Over and over and over. Thus, it is a very easy step from that to “terrorist” or “terrorist sympathizer.” Once the government has convinced most American sheep that anyone who stands up or speaks out against the U.S. in any way, shape, or form is “one of them,” it will be very easy for the military or police to fire upon its own “brothers.” It is all perception, and the fascist regime of the neo-cons is VERY good at shaping perception.
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Also, David, I agree that 300 million Americans could take over the US – even the US military – easily. However, 1) all 300 million Americans will never all stand up at once. Remember that over 60 million voted for Bush again in 2004. 2) Even if you could get, say, 20 million Americans to rise up and fight against the regime, you would never get them all to march and fight as a unified, coordinated force. Strength in numbers would win the day, but not with 20 million Americans basically lone-wolfing it on their own, or in small ragged bands across the country, in a form of covert guerilla warfare. Not only would they be outnumbered by even their local police forces, but they would also be spied out and reported by their own fellow civilians and neighbors.
I’m sorry, but a revolution just ain’t gonna ever happen folks. Too many Good Germans here in America. We WILL go quietly into that good (or, rather, evil) night, by and large.
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I agree, David, we must be vigilant and fight the good fight. Important is the journey as well as the destination.
As others have mentioned, the thugs are not to be underestimated. They give the soldiers medications that affect the ability to feel a conscience. Why send the troop that just spent three tours in Fallujah and greater Iraq to patrol home towns? Isn’t that what our National Guard was intended for; protec ting the citizens? So easily and repeatedly, the military speak of (the good ‘ol U.S.of A. as) The Homeland. Subtle, just like the military and black and white police helicopters that fly daily over certain neighborhoods. Business as usual – until you realize the unprecedented nature of this. Posse Comatitus makes it illegal to place soldiers on the ground at home, but “all that changed after 9/11″ and the story of The Homeland portends to be a different story than the one we memorized all those years in school. Not that there isn’t history to learn from here! Snort.
Somehow the revolutionary brother and sisters must create an alternate world that is soooo appealing as to be irresistable to even the drugged soldiers patrolling American cities after returning home from Iraq. It is an optimal experiment. I mean, these soldiers will never be “normal” as they once were, now that they did what they did in Falujah and other places we may never know. – So.. put them on the streets at home. Better than ending up homeless. Put “thinking life is an endless warzone” to good use.
Again, though, the revolution. The thing that will save us all from tyrrany.. must appeal to the majority and be irresistable :p. Ok, am working on that now.
Peace, peeps.
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How about this tactic — if we stop funding this government, if EVERYONE refuses to volunteer their hard earned money as income tax, then they will disappear overnight.
Go to your payroll department or whoever writes your paycheck and add 4 or 5 or 6 dependents to your exemptions thus reducing the amount withheld from your paycheck to very little. I believe this is legal (at least in NYS it is), and you won’t be doing anything ‘illegal’ until you refuse to send the government its tax money.
I know, i know . . . how to get EVERYONE to join this action is of course the problem. But if we keep funding them nothing will change.
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Letters, I agree with your comment about the importance of seniors. One thing some of them do have is wisdom. Not John McCain of course!
Adina, I know that terrible things have been done by various militaries against their own citizens. Hopefully, America is not that uncivilized yet!
Demon, if things get bad enough the people will begin to stir. Perhaps the financial crises will become the catalyst!
Grace, hopefully the penny will drop for Americans soon. They have been conned bigtime!
David, in my sidebar I have advocated a similar strategy. But what is required are many strategies, all of them working simultaneously. But first and most importantly, the America people have to awaken from their dream/nightmare!
Cheers.
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David (visitor), a good concept, but even if you claim 10 dependents on your W2 – which is perfectly legal, as you can claim as many exemptions as you want – and have hardly any taxes taken out of your paycheck every week, come April 15th when you file your tax return, you must then pay all of that tax to the IRS that you DIDN’T pay during the year through claiming all those exemptions. So in the end you’ll be paying it all to the government anyway, only in one massive check instead of weekly. Unless, of course, you want to try lying on your tax return and claiming that you really DO have 10 dependents
That, of course, requires providing all 10 social security numbers of those “dependents.”
In the end, we gotta pay the tax man, whether it’s right or wrong (and income tax, by the way, is illegal: look it up).
Demon (former tax accountant)
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Thank you so much, Demonstorm, Adina, and of course, David. I have heard a supervisor at my city-county bldg. scold an ‘underling’ guard with gun, that he should be more closely watching the ‘people’, meaning us county employees who are ‘high’ enough to merit a parking spot in the garage and have already showed identification on our autos even to get in the garage. Then these same guards require every man who comes to the building for whatever purpose to even take off their belts as they pass through screening.
Since I stood up to the Democrat party officials, tv cameras have followed me home and done a hatchet job on me, and the chair of the county Republican Party referred, cameras rolling by the same news show, that he had heard rumors that I wasn’t good for the county. I left a message for him to call me back and tell me the nature of the rumors. Of course, he hasn’t. I am CodePink and anti-war, and Paul Craig Roberts has told me that especially white men would term me a terrorist for being thus. Far out, eh. Not, this is real, here in the heartland, moderate-sized city, USA.
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How many times have we looked on in shock as the authorities in ‘civilised countries’ have brutally beat demontsrtaors. O’Tim has a classic video example on his blog of a peaceful female protester being beaten to the ground by a policeman because she dared demonstrate against the Republican Party.
Violence won’t win the day, the ranks of police & military surrounding the leaders is too powerful for a insurgency and the revolution would soon falter when the heads start getting cracked, recent examples in Burma and Tibet make that obvious. Have to be more subtle.
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Swan, your account is disturbing and paints a very different picture of what we are led to believe democracy is about in America. I hope that some of the American apologists read your comment and take note!
Lucy, it is commonly accepted that the police, army, etc, in Western societies rely on most citizens obeying the law.
If 300 million Americans decided that they’d had enough and, as a group, decided to rebel, nothing could stop them.
How many times have we seen modest numbers of people in states in Europe and Asia get rid of Governments by protesting, by engaging in some violence? There have been many of them!
I’m a pacifist but, sometimes, being peaceful like sheep means you will be herded.
Cheers.
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HA HA “Rise up and take over the government!” HA HA and become like the French? HA HA HAAAA you are crazy!!! I would love to see you try!!! the military doesn’t even need to come in the rest of the American population could do their job for them!!! Here is a better idea… MOVE TO FRANCE!!! you probably be more happy there seeing that you think their government is soooo much better than America’s. Next American Revolution HA HA HAAAAA. GO TRY VOTING, it really works.
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Ziggy, when your mother tucks you into bed tonight, get her to read you The Three little Pigs. Then, when you say your prayers, ask for forgiveness!
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HA HA HAAAAA!!!!!! I thought you didn’t believe in religion.
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I don’t, Ziggy! But you should!
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dear all, help.. can anyone please explain to me what the congressman is saying in the
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLon2O-wCh4&feature=user
I don t get it. He says publicly “we are under martial law as declared last night”.. Is that true? Is that real? Am I misunderstanding?
please help me understand.
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Here is something to think about, if everyone forgot about religion but remembered god, this world would be a moderately peaceful place to live. The reason there is so much violence in religion is not religion itself but in the number of different religions in the world, you see on the news in the Middle East, Muslims killing Christians and Jews or the other way around all the time because they don’t believe what they want them to believe. Now if everyone in the world had the same exact religion and beliefs depending on what those beliefs are, then you and I and the rest of the world would probably be living in a utopia right now, but seeing that won’t happen until the end of days you are going to have to put up with religion or find one for yourself, you know you can even make one up if you want to.
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funny.. recurring themes.. Global Government, Global Religion.. well.. how about letting people live in their own countries .. I guess for the well to do, that s unacceptable. they want to travel, they want to decide the gas emissions of others located thousands of miles away.. while they go on about their business, buying “environmental credits”.. global this,global that.. one central solution will bring heaven.. I ve seen what heaven it brought until now. Commerce is unified, travel as well, democracy everywhere.. go on with global government and global religion which would be the ultimate fascism. Fascism. Nothing less, nothing more.
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I even start to believe what I considered abberrations before. Maybe subtle preparations are indeed made for what s to come.. so , all, please prepare yourselves for some holographic jesus who will be served on the plate of the unified religion, at the right moment.. appocalipse coming
heheheheheh for Sheep. Sheep to lead plenty. scare them and give them a miracle. They ll all fall deeper than they already did.
Maybe I ve been more pragmatic then I should have. Maybe the theories are not as abberrant as they seem.
Good luck with God. He ll be playing golf with the planets, while some intelligent prick will again manufacture his image in human terms, for sheep to fall again.
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Wow, Swans. I have felt like a Karen Silkwood character just talking about the things people don’t talk about in polite society; like wars and toxins and such, but to be targeted and have someone with a gun keeping a special eye on you is Horrendous!!!
When the drumbeat of “all that changed after 9-11″ started, to what depths we could not have imagined, really. GWBush IS leaving this country and world a far different and ominous place. That is his legacy. As Darth Cheney said, on September 16, 2001: “We also have to work, though, sort of the dark side, if you will. We’ve got to spend time in the shadows..”
Wow, I wish collectively we could awake from this dark eight years to a green and happy society. Far better than the alternative!
Peace.
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Adina, martial law is but one of the weapons of a fascist government. George W. has it all ready to go.
I can’t download Youtube because I don’t have access to broadband so I can’t help you with your question.
Ziggy, the answer is not in having one religion but having no religion. If you remove superstition from people’s thinking we might be able to concentrate on improving our reality.
Adina, a global government run on the style of the Ancient Greek Democracy wouldn’t be fascist. It couldn’t! I love ‘your god playing golf with the planets’ sentence. Are you related to Shakespeare?
Grace, we all live in hopes!
Cheers.
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David Why do you want to get rid of the current constitution if most of its admendments are based on freedom and equality for every American citizen, you also argue for the use of drugs to controll people,and you also want to ban religion, to me that sounds a lot like oppression. I know that a lot of Americans are very angry with how our country is being run right now and can’t wait for the next president to get into office but to throw away their rights, control their thoughts with drugs, and ban their religion seems a lot like something Hitler would do and I know that they won’t stand for that. Yes some changes can be made in our policies like we should stop being the policeman of the world and we should elect people who actually know what they are doing. Hopwfully the next president turns this country around.
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Martial Law.
Dear David, I found for you the transcript of the youtube video mentioned. I ve seen it with my own eyes, videotape of a live congress transmission, and the transcript below is accurate, word by word. (the quotes “”)
“I have been thrown out of more meetings in this capital in the last 24 hours than I ever thought possible, as a duly elected representative of 825,000 citizens of north Texas.” Said Congressman Burgess.
Burgess asks the Speaker of the House to post the bailout bill on the internet for at least 24 hours instead of passing the largest piece of legislation in US financial history in the “dark of night.”
The most frightening part of Rep. Burgess’ one-minute floor speech is when he says, “Mr. Speaker I understand we are under Martial Law as declared by the speaker last night.”
Adina again: there are some other explanations to this from other people who say:1. congress was threatened with Martial Law if they don t pass the bill. 2. Congress Martial Law is a different thing which means a legislation piece may be voted without congress knowing it s content. Say what?
I don t know what to believe.
Regardless.
Martial Law? for a financial bill to failed corporate who went Spa (see AIG) after they almost banckrupt the country?
Others, any help on this topic? are you aware about it? is it true?
P.S. I do not think that a global government led by a true democratic principle is fascist. i m afraid the human implementation of a world government will again through manipulation and greed let the same clique lead to a ultimate fascist deviation of the initial intent.
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Ziggy, eight years of George W. have exposed serious holes in the Constitution. It failed to protect the American people and it failed to get rid of him or control him.
My advocacy of the banning of religion and my urging the short-term use of pacifying drugs is to try to stop humans from destroying themselves and their world in a nuclear holocaust.
Hope will not change the world, Ziggy. Action will.
Cheers.
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True Freedom ?
Then.. I m FOR the Ban on Religion.
I WANT TO BE FREE NOT TO HEAR ABOUT IT ANYMORE unless I chose to.
Please Legislate SEX and RELIGION to be a PRIVATE MATTER.
But that would be boring huh, and not profitable huh/ What to fight about? who to convert? Just go home and pray, so lonely, and no spice or reward about it? Just a private matter? No conversion, no soul saving, no I know what is better for you? How can I dare?
No exhibitionism, no excitement, just a private matter? Not feeling Good about I have God on my side and I can tell you off as I m his chosen and you re not? Private matter? Such a social business, such a gossip opportunity?
I believe the true belivers are already private, unless they are insane.
And Sex.. have brothels openly run, if people chose to go, and if people want to sell their bodies. Why on earth should government forbid that you sell your body, but approve if you sell your body AND pay taxes? HUH?
Have churches, temples, sinagogues free to exist, and let people go there and believe in whatever they chose.
Do what the f… you want with your body.
Believe in whatever you want.
Just keep it to yourself.
No need to convince others what you do is right, be it sex, religion, or alimentary habits.
Why should anyone tell me who to or who not to have sex with? Why should anyone tell me who to or who not to believe in?
Not that I in any way interrelate sex and religion. Just making a point in that These are the basic freedom principles allowing me to utilize BODY AND MIND freely.
Adina
P.S>When I say “You” the term is impersonal, includes me, and not in any way referred to any of the individuals posting here.
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What holes in the Constitution, please tell me I would like to know? Also what will you do when people don’t want to give up their religions or take the pacifying drugs? I think the best thing to do is just to get rid of nukes all together.
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What holes? Where have you been living for the last eight years, Ziggy?
If people want to worship at home that’s fine. It’s the organized, wealthy religious institutions that need to be disbanded.
Many humans would willingly take pacifying drugs to free themselves from the crude instincts they experience.
Nukes are simply the result of religion and our destructive, violent nature, Ziggy.
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Pacifying drugs? That’s a slippery slope that won’t end well. A Government would love to have a docile population willing to accept its actions without protest. Not for me thank you.
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You didn’t answer my question. You keep saying there are holes in our constitution but cannot give me any examples. Another thing, Lucy here says she doesn’t want to take any pacifying drugs, I too would not take them either. What are you going to do to us and a popluation of say a 10000 who don’t want to take the drugs? getting rid of organized religion? hum… sounds like the old soviet regime to me. Also I said Nukes should just be gotten rid of completely How were they brought about as a result of religion last I checked they were used to stop imperialism.
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Ah, Lucy, is the better option to allow our destructive, violent instincts to reign supreme until we destroy ourselves?
If you have a flaw in your heart you wouldn’t think twice about having it fixed. So what’s so wrong with adopting a temporary fix to a flaw in our nature while we try to come up with a better solution? To do nothing is to invite extinction!
Ziggy, I have given reasons. Nukes were developed to advance imperialism, American imperialism! That’s why the U.S. has military bases all over the world.
Cheers.
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Ok, what happens when people are taken off of the drugs since they are for short-term use only. Also if the men in the military were told to come home and shoot their own families they would revolt against the leaders and leave the military and just come home to protect their families and the rest of the American population. Those men and women in the military are good people.
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Hopefully, a more passive group of humans could then sit down together and come up with a better education system, Ziggy, one that teaches cooperation and caring, one that helps us to tame our more base instincts.
If that doesn’t work, then there is always genetic engineering which might remove some of our more destructive, violent traits.
The problem is that humans are a mixture of good and evil, Ziggy, and the evil part, if left unchecked, will eventually destroy us.
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Yes our mixture of good and evil is a problem, but I know of many religions that do teach cooperation, caring, and good morals, however many people have taken its words and thrown them out of context and manipulated it to do what they want it to do, which is sad but is the truth. To throw-away these religions would be a bad decision, we should teach the real meaning of their text not something fake that someone made up to make them feel less guilty about something bad they did or will do. The religions that teach cooperation, caring, and good morals should be taught truthfully to everyone, these are religions that many good people who have promoted world peace followed and believed. Getting rid of religion will cause people to lose their morals and more and more violence will rise because many people will feel that there will be no repercussions for their actions. Good religions are a way to keep our mixture of good and evil in check. Think about it.
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Ziggy, what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians is a good example of the fruits of religion. Religion divides us. Religions are elitist. Religion, no matter which one, has not a shred of scientific evidence to support its claims.
People can learn to be good and caring without introducing silly superstitions into the equation.
Cheers.
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Great hearing from you, David G. Check out Eric Hufschmidt (sp) on line. Prothink.org has an addition to MISSING LINKS, the video today. Please watch it.
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And to Adina, please let me shout out that I think there are very few women who truly want to sell their bodies, but only do so because they perceive it is necessary.
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Like who? Just wondering? It will be difficult to keep people good and caring without the so-called superstition that what ever they do will be seen by the big boss upstairs.
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Dear Swan.. you d be amazed how many “mistresses” populate the mother Earth. In the many places I ve lived it is costumary to see the sexta-septuagenary business man, fat, ugly, foul, with the appendix: the sexy, sweet, all perfumed, long legged 20, 30max years.. mistress.
You would be amazed if an accurate accounting could quanotify for real how many women DO sell their body. This is real. And the nation of Play Boy is hardly a place where that is not a daily reality. They do sell their body, in any way possible..
And to anyone who may assume I m bitter and jealous of those gorgeous “ladies”, for the record, I m actually good looking and got nothing to envy there.. ha ha ha
P.S. just check out the case of the New Zealander teacher who had as part time evening job the following qualification: prostitute. Seems that New Zealand cannot even deny her right to teach, as she is free to utilize her evenings freely.. Ha ha ha ..
So the Money do Shape the World, and women do sell their bodies..
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Swan, I’ll check it out.
Ziggy, there are many people who are atheists yet they care about the world and its people. They are called humanitarians.
Swan, women have been selling themselves for ten millenia. Some of them give a very good impression that they enjoy it!
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You say rich people are bad but Bill Gates and his wife is a humanitarian who has donated millions if not billions to people in need, would you say they are good people?
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Ziggy, certainly there are philanthropists like Gates. But having spent much of your life acquiring more money than you could ever spend, to give some away must make them feel good.
However, those who give who don’t have a fortune make a sacrifice that is far greater and more worthy in my opinion.
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NoOneYouKnow.. we are not that naive, are we.. Do you know what fiscal benefits trusts and humanitary foundations entitle the trustees to?
Having two days ago a discussion with an Ambassador.. really. (by the way, he s around 60 with a 20 y.o mistress publicly and shamelessly displayed).. he said that many chose to be beneficiary Consuls for countries of which they are not even citizens for NO FEE.. I said , come on.. they must have some Financial interest linked to the respective country.. and he said , no.. These people are rich.. but not mega rich.. in the range of tenth of millions, ministers and presidents will never bother about them.. for them to get invited to receptions and meet these high level people.. is a huge benefit . He also added that organizing and going to charities is another way to entertain and expose yourself.. if you are not the grandaddy teaching fables kind of retiree.. So. there maybe decent rich people. But preservation of wealth is their main target.. Sharing is just a good publicity stunt, for the majority of the cases.
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Back to the subject of government, I would really like to know what holes do you see in the constitution, because it seems to me that the constitution was made to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity. But, hey, if you can’t name any thats fine too.
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NOYK, if you examine your list of things the Constitution was meant to achieve and compare that to how America stands at this point in time it seems to me that there is a huge discrepancy. This must surely suggest to you that the Constitution is badly flawed.
Take a few issues: the American people couldn’t get rid of Bush or impeach him and neither could they stop him acting like a dictator or stop him taking away their rights or spending the country into bankruptcy or engaging in invasions and occupations or torturing and rendering or unfairly favouring Big Business, Religious Fundamentalists and the wealthy, etc, etc.
And the Constitution certainly doesn’t stop Congress or the Senate from being manipulated by the rich and the powerful.
Cheers.
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NoOneYouKnow.. well at least you do not continue to sustain that the poor rich people are struggling and sacrificing themselves in order to make the poor poor people happy with their magnanimous disinterested charities..
For the holes in constitution.. well, if there weren t any holes.. the intricate system of laws which manage to slip through despite their non constitutionality would not be able to exist. Let s take some holes in target:
1. Powers of congress “To borrow money on the credit of the United States;” – nice.
My comment: That means to be able to create credit bubbles and discharge them on the Taxpayers.. that seems a big hole to me. ON THE CREDIT OF THE UNITED STATES…. huh.. THE BAILOUT IS CONSTITUTIONAL for the people who still question it s constitutionality.
2. “To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions”;
- Martial law Is Constitutional. What is insurrection? The people raising up against the power of the Congress. hehehe. Constitutional to raise MILITIA against them. That seems a big hole to me.
3. Limits of the Congress: “The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.”..
Comment: to the deluded people who think martial law is not possible.. as habeas corpus rules.. well NOT. As REBELLION is a huge term. and if a citizen rebels.. habeas corups may CONSTITUTIONALLY be DENIED if the CONGRESS finds it necessary.
Big hole. big big hole.
5. ammendment 1791 “No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.”
Comment: in time of peace.. don t worry. soldiers cannot enter your house… But in times of War ,.. or under Martial law, they also cannot enter… “but in a manner to be prescribed by the law”. So pass a new bill, and the Soldier can become your extended family on a daily basis, within the comfort of your own house… that you payed with your money and that you payed TAX upon…
BIG hole…
6. To the delulded propagandists who say Tax is not constitutional in US… here we go:
“The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived”.Ammendment 16 ,1913
So taxes are constitutional, and increasing or decreasing them… up to the authorities…
Big Big hole, if they use them to BAILOUT corporate greedy pigs…
By now, your texts seem like Swiss Cheese to me..
Wonder how can you not see it,.
Have you actually read your constitution?
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Have you even read the entire Constitution? Did you know that the “list of things” I gave was preamble of the Constitution? Which goes “We the people of the United State of America, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” The president of the United States has to abide by the rules of the U.S. Constitution. Yes, Bush was the second to worse president that this country has had but he did not violate any of the 21 Constitutional amendments which would be our rights that we have in this country. Yes the Constitution could use a bit of clarification. Here is a reality check, the big companies and the dumb economists in the government are also to blame for running our economy in the ground, another thing, the Constitution gives the president the right to invade another country if it is a threat to the United States, clearly the terrorist hiding out in Afghanistan pose a huge threat to the US, and we went into Iraq looking for weapons of mass destruction, we didn’t find any and decided to overthrow an evil dictator. The Invasion of Iraq was a big mistake with very few gains. The Constitution does not favor anyone because it is based on equality and freedom. The whole torturing thing and keeping foreigners without giving them a reason why is wrong and unfair and is the only thing that I could find that was a tiny, tiny hole in the Constitution and could easily be fixed.
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Ziggy, you are determined to separate the idealistic theory from the grim reality on the ground. That is your right.
You’ve had a lifetime of clever, forceful indoctrination. It may take another lifetime for you to see your country as the rest of the world sees it.
Of course, you may never see it!
Cheers.
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Ha ha ha … you are pathetic.
Now you admit there is a tiny tiny tiny hole in the costitution. Do you know what insurrection means? do you know you have no right to protest and get up against the decisions of the congress even if they go against your interests as citizens? tiny Hole???
Now you talk about preambles.. and chase your own tail, bringing Iraq into picture.. what iraw got to do with the topic? You challenged David on holes in constitution. Can you factually prove to me that my points above and tiny tiny many holes… which are quoted from Your Constitution are not real and just a figment of imagination?
I love pathetic losers who start discussions and are not able to conclude them, and evade the topic they proposed with empty proaganda that sounds pretty communist to me: “based on equality and freedom”..
Blah blah blah. Are you equal and free to steal billions from taxpayers and not go to jail for it? Didn t think so….. You keep thanking your Constitution. And pray to God..
Funny all tiny holes can be fixed but neither God nor the Constitution do fix them..
What are they waiting for?
Could be easily fixed?
IT IS NOT FIXED and that s all that matters.
And do try to fix it if you can: you ll soon have a constitutional Militia and soldier in your house..
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NoOneYouKnow
The brainhashed partizan:
A living shouted slogan.
He has big certainties
Of others’ irregularities.
“Nucular” is the threat
when others nuclear get.
For his’, nuclear is allright,
For His’ hold every right.
He knows what is the best
The world is just “the rest”.
Where terrorist are born
Becomes a place to burn.
To find a scum Osama
They ll hunt each child and momma.
On earth there is no place
To hide from supreme race
Which constitution binds
To have unequalled rights.
If you believe in God
You better pray so hard
The manufactured threat
Your county not to fret.
The brainwashed partizan
Can t comprehend own slogan
All he can do: repeat
That is his only feat.
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David, I already know how other countries see the US, in fact living in Europe and having people say I’m a “dumb yankee” gives me a pretty damn good idea of how Americans and our country are seen. So before you go off saying I had a lifetime of forced beliefs, remember this… these are new beliefs.
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Ziggy, I believe that only around 12% of Americans have passports and have been out of America.
Perhaps if the American Government mandated that every citizen had to spend at least one year overseas the American psyche might change dramatically!
Adina, you continue to surprise and amaze!
Peace.
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That would be a great idea! No really it would.
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Honored by your words, David!!! And Happy
Unfortunately, my message does not seem to touch the source. .You know David why people (like NOYK) love religion? Because they’re raised a higher authority dictating to them how their life should be, while the religious community gives them a sense of belonging. Without these two, they would be lost..
in this lengthy educational/brainwashing process, the neurons responsible for logic kind of falter.. they still grow, but they are always susceptible to subdue to higher authority, sense of belonging, and intense propaganda.
Now let me exemplify to you LACK OF LOGIC and defective function of a brain. For science’s sake, let s take a random specimen ..called let’s say… NOYK…
1. NOYK says: A (constitution) is integer, based on his assumptions. NOYK does not factually demonstrate A is integer.
2. Anonymous replies A is not integer. Anonymous takes time and quotes from A which demonstrate factually A is not integer.
3. NOYK does not reply to point 2 to counter prove A ineger. NOYK reacts like a not yet weaned baby by making appeal to topics adjacent to A. NOYK admits tiny holes in A. NOYK claims A need some bit of explaining before people can understand it’s integrity. He failes miserably to provide the respective “little explaining”.
4. Anonymous is sick an tired of these pretenders. Anonymous requests a reply right on, to the TOPIC.
5. NOYK ignores the Topic Completely..
and Now watch carefully.. this is the step NOYK’s are experts at:
6. NOYK transforms himself in VICTIM!!! He is overseas, poor him, and people are treating him as an ignorant yankee…
Amazing. This strategy is repeated ad infinitum.. just see religious topics.. it goes the same..
Habz – her religion great, better than others.
A – religion not ok. quote point 123..
Habz.. – religion need explaining to be understood better. point 123 avoided.
A – cut the crap. .Please explain.
Habz – busy with the nephew.. avoiding the topic..
and then ultimately…
Habz – i m a victim. I m persectuted by non believers. Failing to explain the points that could prove religion right..
I apologize if I bring again that closed topic.. I wanted to make the analogy between people who subdue to authority and religion.. their behaviour is strangely similar..
It is true, this kind of hipocrisy and disinformation tactic, with the wolf assuming sheep victim status at the end brings the ugly side of me out. i can t take it anymore.
It s like (quote NOYK again) we went to Afganistan to find Osama.. as we were there.. we did more good and went to Iraq to find mass destruction. Great. We couldn t find bomb.. there were some SMALL MISTAKES..
Why do people hate us?
We are the victims?
CUT THE CRAP NOYK and with you every brainwashed propagandist. You are so transparent.. even a child can see through.
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Ah, NoOnwYouKnow.. one last time: DONT LECTURE ME ON HOW WE VIEW YOU AND YOUR COUNTRY.
I HAVE CRIED watching people jumping out of the towers.. I have cried seeing live the second plane.. I have cried and empathized with the american people.
But that did not stop my brain. When a terrorist does something, your first action is to protect his family? As they are innocent? SAY WHAT? HIS FAMILY SHOULD HAVE BEEN FREE BUT UNDER STRICT SURVEILLANCE IN THE STATES. FAMILY IS THE FIRST TO SURVEIL. Your special secret services do not know that?
And then.. why didn t you care so much about the protection of collateral victims, innocent children.. oh, they can die, but we don t want the American people to hurt Osama s family. I WONDER WHY. WHY. WHY. Who wants osama s family safe and why (by the way, on taxpayer money… )??
And then, just because Osama sent “postcards” with an Afghan mountain background.. the rest is history..
Amazing how you all can claim we hate you.. And then.. after all the trilllllllions you have spent on military and defense.. Have you ever wonder how come so many aircrafts can fly over unauthorized area? check any third world country and you ll see there are Aviation rules which prevent that from happening the minute the plane deviated from his original route, especially in the proximity of the airport.. and over highly populated area
I CRIED. But I m afraid the only reason i can cry now for, is that you are so brainless, it is frightening. Thank God there are many many many decent americans. And I DO LOVE THEM
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I can handle those who are unwitting victims of indoctrination, Adina, whether it be nationalistic or religious.
The ones who really get me going are the pseudo-intellectuals. They went to University, rote learned some ‘intellectual’ procedures, passed a few exams, then left University thinking they know everything. They’re the type who start a debate by asking asinine questions like: ‘How do you define business?’ and ‘How do you define profit?’
I guess even the most uneducated person knows the answer to those questions so you get warning in advance that such a person is not genuine but is trying to trap you with his feigned flourish of intelligence and cleverness. Such people also love esoteric words and sprinkle them everywhere.
Cheers.
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YES! Pseudo-intellectuals too! They do push my buttons too!!!!
And what these cathegories have in common is behavioral:
1. flashing entrance, Broadway style
2. stubborn demagogy, flag and starts
3. change the subject when they can t cope with logic
4. play the victim to divert the topic
5.. disappear like COWARDS…
as that is what they are.
As for the political system revolution.. I ve reflected upon other’s ideas and I combined them all, in a proposal (I have enough dignity to admit to that Canadian guy that maybe his idea wasn t so wrong after all, with one important adjustment tough..
Today we have the technology. Every individual on earth should be linked to a personal computer voting system in his home.. based on FINGERPRINT access. Then elect a world government. Broadcast every single meeting and no secrecy under any circumstance, no exception whatsoever. (here the guy was right). And for every single matter, agenda, decisions, etc.. every individual on earth should vote using his fingerprint…. The majority will decide. People who abstain .. it s thei problem. I believe more and more people will attend if they feel they have direct decisional power on the DECISIONS and not on the once every four years selecting politicians to represent them and take decisions on their behalf.. But again.. who will want to give a Zimbabwean the same right as to a Swiss? Doubt it is acceptable for people.. As La fontaine said.. small dogs are euqal, but big dogs are more equal than the small ones..
Cheers
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Yes, definitely we have the technology to set up a world government, Adina, but we don’t have enough properly educated humans to take part in it.
We need a Revolution in Education. We need to get rid of the rote-learning and the false perception that learned people have all the answers. They don’t!
Each person must be taught to think for themselves, question everything and act decisively to get rid of rorts and depose bad systems.
But I guess the religious, the politicians and the Merchants of Greed wouldn’t want that to occur, would they?
They prefer sheeple!
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Hello Mr. Grayling
I have a question for you, how will you start and lead the next “American Revolution” if you are living in another country. I am assuming that you are in Australia, right?
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You are right David and Adina NYOK was a brainless and a coward.
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Mr Unknown, I’m sure that Americans would never allow a leader who wasn’t homegrown to lead them.
Surely among 300 million people there is one person with the vision and intelligence to lead the country out of its deep, increasing problems? What about yourself?
Jonny, I respect your opinion.
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Oh, but Mr. Grayling you are wrong in your assumption that Americans would never follow a foreigner’s vision to lead themselves out of an increasing problem or problems. If you have studied American history, and I assume that you have, you will see that the man who had the largest influence for starting the American Revolution was Thomas Paine. Paine worked and lived in Britain until age 37 when he immigrated to the British American colonies; while he was there he wrote one of the most widely-read and incendiary pamphlets during the revolutionary era, Common Sense, which gave the colonists a reason to declare their independence from the British rule. This pamphlet was also an influence in the writing of the writing of the Declaration of Independence which contains many of its key concepts. However that was two centuries ago, and the times have changed greatly, but if you have ever been to America you will clearly see that it is a country of immigrants who are from many different countries and backgrounds each having different views yet altogether having an exact same view, that America is the land of opportunity.
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Mr Unknown, the idea that America is a land of opportunity is a myth, like many of the claims made by and about America.
It is a society of two classes: a small group of the ultra-rich and a majority of struggling middle class and lower class folk (the colored in the latter category).
Currently it is near bankruptcy (and it would be if those who had loaned it money called for repayment of the debts) and its economic system is in peril.
It is involved in invasions and occupation to feed both its rapacious greed and imperialism and of course its love of violence. It supports a regime of cruel religious fanatics (the Israelis) and their occupation of the West Bank and Gaza while claiming it supports human rights and democracy. The massive amounts of money it gives to Israel could provide much needed health care for its citizens and make improvements to its failing educational system.
I’m sorry, Mr Unknown, but I judge America by what it does. I am not influenced by its continuous torrents of fallacious propaganda and lies!
Cheers.
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Mr. Grayling, have you personally ever visited or have taken up residence in the United States? If so, my argument will be different from the following; because I see no evidence of you ever visiting or living in the United States I assume that you must basing most of you know from a media news network and the internet, both of which contain information that is of one view point or another, for example; one news network would an American soldier acting indecently, while another network would show an American soldier handing candy out to children and the same goes for a website. Because of this you aren’t judging America by what does, you are judging it from what you see through someone else’s eyes. In other words, you are judging from a distance, in your case, a rather large distance. Once again, Mr. Grayling, I apologize for argument if you have visited or lived in the United States, and I hope that this argument between you and I will stay and civilized as possible.
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Please excuse the typos, Mr. Grayling.
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Mr Unknown. I lived in Canada for three years and I have driven right across America. On other occasions I have visited America and have met quite a few Americans who I rather like.
Many Americans regularly contribute to my blog but, unlike you, many of them are in a complete state of despair over the state of their country and the direction it is heading in. They do not gild the lily as many Americans tend to do.
I can assure you my position will be one of civility unless I discover that you are an American apologist. In that case, as with religious fanatics, no amount of debate will shift your position (and believe me, I know from many years of running a blog as well as, in the past, being a journalist and author).
Cheers.
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Johnny O, thank you so much.
I appreciate your feedback and support so much.. despite the fact that i m sure my opinions seem very strong and rooted, I have doubts and need external input to validate or invalidate them..
I feel better to know that I m not mistaken to think NYOK is a coward.
Although my opinions are and for sure come along strong minded and stubborn, I admit, I like to be challenged, i welcome feedback in any form. . I may argue back but I like it when ideas are OPENLY and with honesty confronted by intelligent, acute individuals..
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I can assure you, Mr. Grayling, that I am no religious fanatic; however I do believe in the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I would also like to point out that, I too, though not in a complete state of despair, am extremely displeased about how our country is being run at this time, however I believe that there is a better way to fix this nation than a revolution and I hope to share that with you in following posts. Once again Mr. Grayling I apologize for assuming that you have never visited the United States.
Mr. Unknown
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I guess that the fact that so few Americans have ventured beyond America might explain some of the ignorance that many Americans have about the world they live in, Mr Unknown.
I have spent more than three years of my life just traveling and, most importantly, with my eyes open. I have visited many sites of antiquity and I am saddened by the fact that so much history has come and gone and we humans have learned so little.
Like you, I am Mr Unknown. I do what I do, not for personal gain or out of egocentricity, but because I really would like the leave this world a slightly better place than it was when I entered it all those years ago.
I don’t think I will achieve my aim somehow. But that I tried is all that is important.
Cheers.
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Mr. Unknown, I apologize for interfering in your diatribe with David G.
However, I spontaneously have two questions for you:
- do you genuinely think American soldiers were deployed to Iraq to save the world from nuclear and to share candies with the “unhappy before americans came” kids?
– Have you ever lived in Iraq? And if not.. where do you get your information about the existence of the nuclear weapons there and the situation there? From the way you exige direct contact with a reality before forming an opinion on one, you must stand up to your own belief and lived for few years at least in Iraq, and have a direct channel there.. or.. do you also rely on your news channels and officials input.. ? I m sure they re “impartial and honest” about it, unlike our channels about America.. ..
But… again. Have you ever lived in Iraq?
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No one may be around to read this, but on April 24th 1974 Portugal gave an even better and more current example of how to change the system than the French 200 years ago did.
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BuddhalovesPaine, I cannot recall the details of their revolution so it must’ve been very subtle!
In America, subtlety is unknown so any revolution there would have to rival if not outdo the French!
Cheers.
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Adina, sorry about the delay to an answer to your question,but I will answer no matter how spontaneous it is. I cannot genuinely say that American soldiers were deployed to Iraq just to save the world from nuclear threat and to give candy to children living there, because of the fact that I have never lived or even been to Iraq because it has been much too dangerous, and that the missions that they give the soldiers are classified. But I can say that they weren’t deployed there to kill civilians. You must understand that there has never been a war without a civilian death, but if you can name one I would love to know. Also, I receive my information like Mr. Grayling, through the news and the internet, it’s the general way to gain information about something but there are holes in it and its two sided; I’m not saying that the way Mr. Grayling receives his information is wrong its just impartial and I will admit, so is mine. I assume that you receive your information about Iraq through a news network as well?
Mr. Unknown
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I agree with you Mr. Grayling, I too would like to leave this world in a somewhat better place then it is now. I also agree with your first sentence, so many Americans have taken their freedoms for granted and do not understand what it is like to live life like the people in places such as Zimbabwe, Africa, their lives are threatened just because they vote for another person, or live life in fear in places in the Middle East were at any second they could die with a suicide bomber or be ruthlessly hunted just because of they beliefs. Sadly I see things that are similar in the U.S. but too such a harsh degree, such as the current election, many people’s homes are vandalized just because they voted for McCain or Obama, and gang violence, were people are shot just because of their race, but I see many Americans on both sides of the political spectrum, who are rising up to confront and rid the country of such violence.
Mr. Unknown
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Mr. Unknown,
thank you for your reply.
Whether I have been in Iraq or not is irrelevant, I am not the one to have suggested certain pre-requisits for forming an opinion on things.
I hope you are aware of the potential implications of your statements. I ll try to describe few.
You have started a discussion in which you have implied that for an individual to have an accurate opinion on matters one should have experienced them on first hand.
I am sure you would agree with me that if that was true, most of the humanity will be not entitled to express any opinion for matters which exceed the borders of their physicality and personal experience.
your exigence causes very dangerous implications, you see.. because one may dare tell people when expressing an opinion build on of course various and unverifiable sources that they do not tell the truth but “perceive it through someone else’s eyes”.
Your exigence would make a great excuse for the people who could operate under the umbrella of such a huge statement: I CAN DO WHATEVER as YOU have not been there to see it with your own eyes, hence you cannot understand it…
Furthermore, despite the fact that I agree with you that we should be better informed, I am amazed you seem to defend the necessity and outcome of Iraq’s war by saying that “there is no war without collateral victim”..
So you yourself easily take things for granted, accept status quo without challenging it..
And what is most upsetting, you seem to fail to even consider thes question: “why did that war start on the first place?”..
I ask: is war really necessary.. who gave America the right to be universal defendent against Nuclear.. how do you chose which are the threat country from the multitude of nuclear technology posessing countries? why do you not fight communist china who s famous for crimes against humanity and nuclear testing but sponsor them with your business ? why do you chose and pick war locations? maybe is is Muslim Nuclear that american consider dangerous only? Will you go to Pakistan also soon?… and who’s next on your list except Iran which we all know you ll find a marketable excuse to attack..
Maybe you agree with the war. and in that case you have based your decision on its necessity on the partial information channels which you received from the people who sponsored, caused and benefited from that war.
Maybe you did not agree with the war, and then I would love to hear it from you..
The fact that I and any other individual on earth can sit on our sofa and reflect on partial pieces of information and talk about them IS BENIGN.
The fact that you (maybe, an if not please say so, and I will apologize to you) and other American fellows can sit on their sofa after their country STARTED AND FIGHT a war OUTSIDE THEIR COUNTRY and JURISDICTION, without ever being attacked by the respective country, and killing so many innocent collateral victim, which from the same sofa’s americans take it for granted so easily “well, collateral victims are OK in any war”… without even questioning why the war started IS MALIGN. It is causing a lot of HARM to a lot of people, and to HUMANITY Mr. Unknown.
I can have superficial and subjective opinions on anything, as long as I do not cause harm. Americans’ majority have a talent to plead innocence for their country, while charging as guilty anyone who dares to have a contrary opinion.
May I hope you agree with me, Mr. Unknown?
Mrs. Adina
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P.S. Hahahahahahah. came up with a new concept. In honor to my Muslim friends whos countries have been hurt by alien unjustified attacks.. Maybe there are two different types of Nuclear that we didn t know about. Christian Nuclear. and Muslim Nuclear.
from what I extrapolate from recent global events using my intellect, Christian Nuclear seems to be right, and can even be granted the right to command and attack against Muslim Nuclear..
Funny. I myself thought Nuclear is a physics matter hence the absurdity to define it’s danger by it’s owner’s religion…
And watching how US destroys their own American citizens wellfare in allowing so much corruption and abuse in their economical system. I wonder what does entitle them to pretend of being owners of justice and truth and ethics when interfering with global matters?
Are you creating mess outside to cover the mess within?
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Mr Unknown,
I apologize, I forgot to answer your last question:
“I assume that you receive your information about Iraq through a news network as well?
Mr. Unknown “..
All my information came from your American mainstream media CNN, CNBC.. etc. funny huh…
I did use my intelligence filter to form an opinion about it tough, I hope I m still allowed the freedom to do that. So here is what I gathered by simply listening to your media:
The war in Iraq has happened triggered by US.
Are you still questioning that?
Iraq never in the history attacked America.
Are you denying that?
Osama is not Iraq citizen.
Are you denying that?
The “pretended Nuclear Bombs” which US used as justification to start a war against a non insurgent country were never found as American Government officials had to admit publicly.
Are you denying that?
Osama bin Laden has never been… … … found.. hehehhehe he he.
Are you denying that?
Now, my intelligence filter, not your media, tells me, based on all the above unquestionable input, that The war in Iraq was an ABUSIVE American Invasion under transparent pretexts which they failed to prove.
Maybe you’ll disagree. Can you then tell me, Mr. Unknown.. what is your understanding … why was this war really necessary and its’ collateral victim acceptable?
Mrs. adina
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I’m sorry for the misunderstanding Adina, and the failure to ask the question “why did we start the war in Iraq in the first place” for I was never asked it until now during this post and I was answering your first post questions, as a matter a fact I have and still do disagree with the Iraq war, I believe that the U.S. should have never gone into Iraq because it was based mostly on superstitions that Iraq had nuclear weapons, we did not have accurate information and we jumped to conclusions. Like you who have jumped to so many conclusions about me because I failed to give information about a certain opinion of mine, such as the Iraq War. I understand your point about the implications of my first statement, but you misunderstood me, I said that he is judging from someone else‘s point of view, for example, a new car, two people, one says its fast and comfortable, the other says its slow and uncomfortable, you agree with the second person because you own a car from the same company of the new car and its slow and uncomfortable, while there is nothing wrong with that, your opinion is still impartial because you never tested the new car. The same goes for almost anything, you can’t understand something completely unless you experience it first hand, or test the new car. To answer your other questions, war is not always necessary, but in a case such as WWII it was, the war in Iraq was not. We became the boss of nuclear weapons because we were the first to invent and use them, I disagree with communist China and their crimes against humanity, we don’t consider Muslim nuclear power dangerous, we consider terrorist nuclear power dangerous. I am sorry if anything offends you and if I missed any questions because I would be happy to answer them for you. Sorry, I have a tendency to leave things out by accident.
Mr. Unknown
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I look forward to you next post.
Mr. Unknown
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Mr Unknown and Mrs Adina, you may not realize it but the comments on this thread have reached more than a hundred which is a record for my blog as is over 900 views! Wow!
Also, I especially love the tone of this debate between you. While it is spirited and no quarter is given, it is also good natured.
Would that all humans could handle differences of opinion so well!
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Congratulations on you recent achievement, Mr. Grayling.
Mr. Unknown
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It was a team achievement, Mr Unknown! All who participated are winners.
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Mr. Unknown,
Please do re read my posts. The only thing I do is asking you questions.
I have never ever in my statements made any AFFIRMATION about you as a person and never jumped to ANY conclusion about you.
Hence your assumption that my questions are trying to discredit you is based on your susceptibility.
I merely copy your approach of questioning another that you started by asking David if he ever lived in America.. it is a very subtle and smart technique, I admit. So , honors to you.
No doubt about it, I applied it to the letter, and all statements I made were under the form of questions and they included the absolution with the disclaimer that you yourself introduced as well:” in case I m wrong I ll apologize”..
So. Now. I m happy you admit that the war in Iraq was a mistake based on superstitions. Then I apologize, and was wrong about you being a supporter of it.
I have never jumped to conclusions about you, but my questions and statements were triggered by your easiness to consider collateral victims of it something excusable based on the fact that historically war always caused collateral victims.
I still believe that is no excuse for STARTING an unnecessary war in the first place..
And that statement and mental view on war victims is the only thing I negatively judge you of. I still maintain my opinion on it and feel no need for apology in this case.
As for you statement: “we don’t consider Muslim nuclear power dangerous, we consider terrorist nuclear power dangerous”… terrorists are in Spain, in Japan, in Pakistan.. in Italy and others.. as well.
What is the logic behind Osama being an Saudi and then all Middle East being put in the same pot.. by what? by religious affiliation? by regional geographical location? How do you judge and decide who’s a potential threat?
What makes Russia after all the bullshit with the cold war and now nuclear power SAFE to America and all less dangerous than Iran or Iraq?
And if these terrorists do plan to attack america, well they can hide anywhere. so then what? burn the whole planet and safeguard only US to be safe.. well… you admit collateral victim kids to be necessary to keep you and your family safe.
Excuse me , now I ll be judgmental and I ll stop questioning: this is obtuse and selfish.
More than that: your country HAS USED the abomination they claim they try to defend people from.
THEY HAVE TESTED IT AND KILLED INNOCENT JAPANESE.. collateral necessary victims again????? now you have suddenly become an ethical nation.. everything justified for dear America’s sake.
WHO S THE REAL TERROR of the world?
I guess the answer will be simple.. It s classified information but you have it.. Like you had evidence Power Point slides for iraq’s bombs story which turned to be a BIG FAT AMERICAN FART.
Nevertheless, I find our conversation constructive. I find you an “opponent” worthy of interest, brave to stand up for own opinion. I m also learning certain things from you.
I appreciate that.
I am also happy David’s topic and our interest created a record.
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Mr. Unknown,
I know with so many questions which I admit are at times rhetoric in substance, it will be unavoidable to omit answering to some of them. From your honesty to stand up to the topics, I sure you did not avoid them intentionally.
Second: I just realized.. and my sincere apology for using in the last post/final part the impersonal “You” in a manner which could generate confusion. it is not directed to You, Mr. Unknown, but to an impersonal “You” – American public opinion..
Please accept my apology for the possible confusion.
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David,
Members of the Portugese military led by left wing military officers overthrew a fascist military dictatorship in a bloodless coup. Euro-communist almost took over control of the country but of course that was prohibited. I myself at that time feared a communist take over, But I was only 14 years old at the time.
Although a very well informed, but brainwashed, 14 year old.
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Thanks for the update, BLP. Better a bloodless coup than the alternative!
Cheers.
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Don’t worry about asking so many questions, asking questions can help build knowledge. I have just realized something (forgive me if I get off topic somehow) that I laugh at myself for not finding out earlier, you know that every human being makes assumptions, we are all guilty of this act, but did you ever stop to think that its assumption that will cause the end of civilization, for example, a man feels some chest pain, blows it off assuming its just some gas, the next hour he has a heart attack, although that is on a personal level it still was dangerous to assume that it was nothing, do you understand? We assumed that there were nuclear weapons in Iraq, there weren’t any and we paid the price. Sooner or later us or another country could assume something about another country and go to war and eventually start WWIII, in fact (correct me if I’m wrong) WWI was started over assumptions. Once again forgive me for the delay in an answer, and if I fail to answer any questions that you would like to be answered.
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I fully agree with you Mr Unknown.
I ll even add: Not only a multitude of world wars started based on assumptions, majority of the wars started under fabricated pretexts, not necessarily based on assumptions, but on certain elitist needs.. and we the mass got crashed in the process, believing in the assumptions. always… (world war 2 also)…
hehehhehehehe.. you made me laugh so much with the metaphor on the stroke
now I ll give you some more to ponder, and build upon your own metaphor..
You know what.. let s play with some more assumptions.. maybe the guy who assumed he has only gas, knows himself as a heavy drinker, and mixing beer with other things while smoking and eventually beating up his wife.. made him assume it s just gas, usual business for him. And maybe the fact that he got a stroke was a blessing to the people who were surrounded him, and the evidence that Karma or something like that called law of balance, universal justice, action reaction, etc etc etc does exist
in the form of the gassy stroke 
So , at times, it is the clinging to the misery of life that makes life miserable.
and other than making assumptions on others, I would focus on making myself and only myself better.
if we would all do that, we won t live in paranoia about the neighbour.. and no war would be necessary. he he he
As for the apology, you are not failing anything, it is always nice to talk to a person who thinks and laughs.
Have a very nice nice weekend Mr Unknown
Adina
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