According to Reuters, Pope Benedict XVI recently condemned unbridled “pagan” passion for power, possessions and money as a modern-day plague as he led more than a quarter of a million Catholics in an outdoor Mass in Paris.
What are we to make of this extraordinary statement? I mean those of us who think about the world and yearn for it to be a better place could hardly quibble with the sentiments he expresses. Certainly those who passionately desire power, possession and money (who certainly are in plague proportions) indeed are evil and have knowingly carried our world towards the edge of extinction.
However, excuse me for asking, but doesn’t the Pope, a Christian man, live in a luxurious Palace? Doesn’t he dress in wonderful finery and hasn’t he got heaps of gold rings and things and doesn’t he have the best care that money can buy (see photograph)?
Doesn’t the Vatican have a priceless collection of art and possessions, ones that probably, if sold, could make each person on earth a millionaire? Doesn’t the Pope head an organization that has valuable real estate all over the world and extracts untold amounts of money from the often poor Catholic flock each weekend by using fear of hell and purgatory? Doesn’t the Pope have immense power over the lives of the flock as evidenced by not allowing them to use birth control or abortion, etc?
Wouldn’t the Pope’s condemnation of those who passionately want power, possession and money appear to be the pinnacle of hypocrisy given his own position of immense power, his lifestyle, and his control over infinite possessions and money (which, heaven forbid, could be badly impacted by the credit crisis)?
When the Pope lives in a humble monastery and sleeps on a stone bed and eats bread and water then perhaps I’ll listen to what he says.
Until then he is nothing more than a shameless hypocrite, one caught up by the plague!
This is cult-speak for give me all your burdensome wealth. You will gain favor with God, which may be true, but giving to the church because they got deep into debt with the pedophelia thing is like the $700 Billion bailout.
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The Catholic church in its current state must be bad. Even rotten in some spots. Power, possessions and money are their weapon they wield around The World. Apparently you cannot convert to Catholicism. They will allow you to convert for your money and resources. However, the only people acknowledged to be “real” Catholics are the “cradle Catholics” or the ones born into it. It is a cult and what they practice is another form of racism. I can tell you they put alot of pressure on people to give everything they have to the church; money, time, possessions. It is the greatest scam.. They tell you how to win favor with God, whom you will meet in the after-life, and collect your earthly goods on your way to meet your maker. The sheep are innocent are they? In exchange you get a life filled with spiritual meaning. Jesus was too much of a rebel. I’ve said it before, but they would have to crucify Jesus if he showed up in Rome. His death is what gives them meaning. I have many times felt the spirit while in churches and temples, only to have the experience ended by members wanting me to join and become one of the group. That was the end of the pure spiritual feeling for me. Irony I suppose. It’s a human trap.
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Ok, one more thing: This spiritual Elitism as represented with the Pope, can be found in many traditions at the core of the group. Do you really think Heir Pope is feeling the recession? I suppose telling bankrupt, foreclosed, unemployed people that money and power are bad IS “the compassionate thing to say..”
Peace.
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Grace, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. They are valuable as always!
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Do as I say, not as I do, eh. Now, let’s hear some criticisms of rabbis and the foul Talmud.
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I have offered unrelenting criticism of Israel for a long, long time, Swan. It’s like water on a duck’s back.
That’s why I detest all religions. They are fraudulent and exploitative, some extremely so.
P.S. The philosophy of Buddhism is one exception.
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he reminds me of satan….and total hypocrisy.
so may i ask david, dyu believe in a GOD i.e. sumthing higher than u
muslims may have their many faults, no denying, but islam will never be “fraudulent and exploitative”
because if u think that, then u really no nothing about our beautiful religion.
in future, plz do not generalize.
and our prophet p.b.u.h, lived on barley, water and dates. he hated all worldly stuff, and there is a narration of Hadhrat Umar ( companion of prophet) states, “When I entered the Holy Prophet’s (peace be upon him) home, I noticed the state of the furniture in it. The Holy Prophet’s (peace be upon him) had only one sheet of cloth around him to cover the lower part of his body. There was one simple bed with one pillow filled with nut fibre; on one side of the room was some barley and in one corner was an animal skin. There were some water bags made of skin hanging beside his bed.”
On seeing this tears came into his eyes. Allah’s Messenger asked the reason for his tears. He replied, “Oh Allah’s Messenger ! Why shouldn’t I cry ! The strings of the bed have left marks on your body. This is a small room with all your furniture.I can see what there is. The Qaiser of Rome and Kisra of Persia (super powers of those times) enjoy luxurious living, while you, Allah’s Messenger, the chosen one, live like this. The Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam said, ” Ibn Khattaab, don’t you appreciate that they choose this world and we choose the Hereafter ?”
…peace…
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Yeah rite!
“Fraudulent and exploitive” seems to me a promise to people to behave here in this world.. as only and only then… they will all going to a HEAVEN where many many VIRGINS awaiting for you to please your senses… and lust.
I wonder what happens to WOMEN in your quote “beautiful religion”.
They also get laid by VIRGINS in HEAVENS ? Or maybe there is no such thing as heaven for the inferior animal called woman..
Pope is a small child compared to this.
P.S. for once, I think islam and christians can burn bridges.. as they all believe woman is something created for the sole purpose and usage as a home appliance for the superior MAN.
Cheers y’all.
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Habz,
Many years ago I had a close Muslim friend from whom I learned alot of beauty of the Islamic religion and culture. One of the things that I really respect is the concept of not needing an intermediary to go before God. There is a sense of personal accountability as well as personal freedom in having a personal relationship with God. I use the word God for that which is great and created us and the planet and everything else. It seems the most universally accepted, even if it can alienate some.
One of the main problems I see is the problem with the acceptance of women as a 50/50 equal, as a creation, or child of God as any man would be. I believe that the original prophet was very respectful toward women, but where did the practice of being harmful to women; in the lack of rights, need to be fully covered as if there is shame or too great a temptation for men? It is hard for me, a western woman, to understand, or rather accept this fundamentalism. I see it as another perversion of the truth. How people are manipulated for the benefit of the few. Each one of us has our challenges in this life. Right now the challenge is How to coexist on Earth; The only inhabitable planet that we know of so far. Without decimating each other and being respectful to one another.
Viva la differences!
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P.S., I didn’t mean to make anyone uncomfortable by asking a direct question about a cultural misunderstanding. I wrote my question fast and had to leave my house. I sincerely would like to understand cultural differences to better understand.
Peace.
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you’ll both be surprised to here im also a female.
first @adina
im sorry u’ve got our BEAUTIFUL religion mixed up, however in no way whatsoever are women inferior to men. if you just look into the life of our prophet peace be upon him, u would understand that factor. in pre-islamic arabia, they would bury their daughters alive. the money and upbringing was too much for them. islam came and abolished that. islam came and gave the women so many beauties. the only thing islam says, is physically and sometimes mentally we are not able to handle things as well as men. this in no way means we are inferior.
all this means is islam faces the facts, and as much as i would love to say i am as strong physically and mentally as a man, i am not. from times of a death, i will cry my eyes out, whilst a man will control himself. to lifting heavy bags, where the weight will just be too much for me, i will not be able to do so whilst a man will be.
i dont understand why u’ve brought virgin into this. maybe its the whole martyr thing u hav got muddled up. men, christian, muslim, agnostic or atheist hav sexual desires, and this is GOD saying to the martyrs, i will fulfill thses desires. let me tell u, that once we get to heaven, we, as females, will get whatever we want. and if that so means, 70 virgin males, we will get that also.
women are not a “home appliance” our beloved prophet peace be upon him himself would kneed the dough, go out and fetch the water, carry the bags of wheat on his back, and do general house chores.
now i come onto what grace said. don’t worry, its better u be inquisative than hav sumthing stuck in ur mind.
culture has come with this whole “women inferior” philosophy, in the name of religion. i live in britain, and i on a regular basis see christians drunk like anything, doing really silly stuff. however i in no way, think this is christianity, rather just british culture.
the zionist illegal state of israel killing millions of innocent palestinians, i in no way think this is judaism, rather culture.
i totally and utterly disagree with how women are treated in many cultures. they may hav the religion of islam, but if you look into islam, u will realise that
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…this is not what it teaches. theres this saying we hav “islam is beautiful, muslims aren’t”
in the issue of women, it couldn’t be more relevant. i was brought up in thse kind of cultural mishaps, but i realised how my parents themselves had got everything confused.
how socialising with relatives, is cultural whilst praying our daily prayers is religious. how not being able to go out too much with friends is cultural, whilst wearing hijab is religious. how women doing housework is cultural, and how women seeking knowledge is religious.
and once i began to distinguish, i also realised how all the good things were from my religion, whilst all the negative things, that got u angry as a teenager, the things that made u rebel, were all cultural.
theres this view of how women in islam are oppressed and totally blank. however im sure if you saw me on the street u’d be surprised. i may not be able to change how the world percieves of us, but i can try to tell my side of the story.
ur free to ask anything whenever, and adina, i will try to ignore the rudeness in ur post.
thanks
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Habz, on this blog, people of either gender are welcome and treated as equals.
You raise an interesting point about the difference between religion and culture. Surely they are intertwined?
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Habz, I apologize for my comments. Let us just then talk on facts. I would appreciate if you stopped propagating your personal opinion of your personal religious choice, and for the sake of common understanding, make us understand fatctually some of the comments of the main book you rely upon in your choice:
The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:
4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)
1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls.
The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:
65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)
The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:
The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)
The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says:
And ah.. about sex…
Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)
9. Husbands are a degree above their wives.
Although you try hard to depict me as an opinioned ignorant, who expresses false and rude accusations: please ba aware I have lived in a muslim country. I have many muslim friends. Unfortunately, my friends confessed that the amount of sodomy and child abuse to which the implementation of certain… rules led is unaccetable.
So stop accusing civilized society about it’s cultural downfall. Because under the veils of any community, including yours, abberations occur. and they are a matter of personal choice. just a religion.
I am a Christian. I am a buddhist. I am a Taoist. It is my f…g problem. And if I wanna go around preach about them, I won t simply go around blessing my prohet’s name and telling people trust me he is wonderful, understand him. Please stop this prozelitism, this proselitism made me in a way renegate my own religion, as they did the same thing, going about preaching how great Christ was.. and trying to convince and convert people to it.
Be happy with your choice, rejoice in it, be blessed with it, but stop trying to convince people your choice is great.
As that only proves your insecurity with it. If you are so secure it is a wonderful choice, trust Allah ‘s power to achieve convertibility of all human kind. But I guess not.. because Quoran as Bible do not content themselves with the individuals who find and chose them. Just like a pyramid system, they promise “compensation” in the terms of various means: martyrdom… godness, i can t believe you even mention that as something good.. and other blessings.
Adina
P.S. Habz, please show me the quote in quoran where they ll promise women 50 virgins in heaven or some other pleasurable reward…. but i guess there isn t none.. woman is not alive for her own individuality and pleasure. She is a provider of pleasure only. And that is opressive and abusive. eventough you may not get it.
P.P.S Dear David, I am an extremely fast reader and typer. Takes me max 3 minutes to type all the above. Apologize to you and others for the length of my comments. If it s too much, please let me know, I promise to behave.
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ah, Habz, one more on which I would like you to comment:
“”All married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”
You can’t have sex with married women, unless they are slaves obtained in war (with whom you may rape or do whatever you like). 4:24
Oh.. Ok. So Quoran’s prophet also denies free will, just like the bible, accepting that there must be slaves.. and that a guy can force sex upon a slave as he pleases. What a wonderful belief.
and the best yet:
Those who “did wrong” will go to hell, and their wives will go to hell with them (no matter how they behaved). 37:22-23
Wow.. so much for the wives freedom. Be careful who you marry Habz, as all your prayers and belief will go to hell if you marry the wrong guy, according to the Quoran..
Thank you for explaining to us further in more detail means. I maybe not able to grasp it’s substance
thank you
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Adina, I follow your comments with interest. Peace.
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i see complete hypocrisy in ur post adina, firstly u apologize, then u do the exact same “rudeness” in the rest of it.
okay so lets tackle ur confused beliefs one by one:
i am not trying to preach my religion, im trying to make a point. david was generalizing how all religions are the same rubbish, im trying to make a point that they’r not.
Remember:
1. Some Quranic verse is straight forward, some needs explanation.
2. We must know the background of revealing each Quranic verse.
3. One Quranic verse explains another verse. Hadith also explains the Quranic Verse. So, no one can come to a conclusion from a single verse
so u cant just judge from one verse, simply picking and choosing what u lyk
about 4:34.. http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/dv-4-34-shafaat.html check that site out
about 4:11
1. In Islam, husband is responsible to maintain the family, not the wife. Therefore husband is the head of the family.
2. During marriage husband must pay the ‘Mahar’ to wife. Wife need not pay anything.
Since responsibility is higher on men, they are to inherit twice that of women
[and in future quote the full thing]
65:1—shows how ridiculous ur site that u used is:
[Talaq 65:1] O dear Prophet (Mohammed – peace and blessings be upon him)! When you people divorce women, divorce them at the time of their completing the appointed period, and keep count of the appointed period; and fear Allah, your Lord; do not expel them from their houses during the appointed period nor should they leave on their own, unless they bring about some matter of blatant lewdness; and these are the limits of Allah; and whoever crosses Allah’s limits has indeed wronged himself; do you not know, it is likely that Allah may send some new decree after this?
[Talaq 65:2] So when they are about to reach their appointed term, hold them back with kindness or separate them with kindness, and make two just men among you as witnesses, and establish the testimony for Allah; with this is advised whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day; and whoever fears Allah – Allah will create for him a way of deliverance.
[Talaq 65:3] And will provide him sustenance from a place he had never expected; and whoever relies on Allah – then Allah is Sufficient for him; indeed Allah will accomplish His command; indeed Allah has set a proper measure for all things.
[Talaq 65:4] And for those of your women who have no hope of menstruation, if you doubt, the appointed period is three months – and also for those who have not yet had menstruation; and the appointed period for the pregnant women is up to the time they deliver their burden; and whoever fears Allah – Allah will create ease for him in his affairs.
its about women who are barren…
2:223
Again it is very obvious, the purpose of going to your wives is, when you want to sow your seed or want off springs. For this, just as a farmer sows seeds in the proper seasons, so you must also conjoin with your wives at proper time periods.
The explanation of this ayaat in Imam Bokhari’s Kitab ul Tafseer, is as follows:
Explanation: Nafi reports that while reading Quran, Abdullah Ibne OmarR never spoke with anybody. One day I approached him when he was reading Quran. When he reached the words in chapter Baq’ra in Quran, he asked me if I knew as to when this ayaat was revealed. I replied in the negative. He then explained the glory of its revelation and resumed his recitation of Quran again. Abdul Samad has said that we receive a tradition from Ibne OmarR that says this ayaat was revealed, because some men were copulating with women. JabarR narrates the Jews, who said; whosoever copulates with his wife from backside shall have cross-eyed progeny. It is in those days this ayaat was revealed, proving the Jews of being wrong. Meaning, women can be engaged in any way one wants, in matters of copulation.
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now come of the sayings of MUHAMMAD PEACE BE UPON HIM:A giver of maintenance to widows and the poor, is like a bestower in the way of God, an utterer of prayers all the night, and a keeper of constant fast.
Admonish your wives with kindness.
Do you beat your own wife as you would a slave? That must you not do.
Your duty to your wife is that you give her to eat as you eat yourself, and clothe her as you clothe yourself; and do not slap her in the face nor abuse her, nor separate yourself from her in displeasure.
Give your wife good counsel; and if she has goodness in her, she will soon take it, and leave off idle talking; and do not beat your noble wife like a slave.
Beat not your wives.
The best of you are they who behave best to their wives.
A virtuous wife is a man’s best treasure.
Women are the twin halves of men.
The world and all things in it are valuable; but the most valuable thing in the world is a virtuous woman.
The best women are the virtuous; they are the most affectionate to infants, and the most careful of their husband’s property.
Whoever doeth good to girls, it will be a curtain to him from hell-fire.
Whoever befriendeth two girls till they come of age, will be in the next world along with me, like my two fingers joining each other.
Whoever befriendeth three daughters, or three sisters, and teacheth them manners, and is affectionate to them, till they come of age, may God apportion Paradise for him.
Whoever hath a daughter, and doth not bury her alive or scold her, or prefer his male children to her, may God bring him into Paradise.
Shall I not point out to you the best of virtues? It is your doing good to your daughter when she is returned to you having been divorced by her husband.
God enjoins you to treat women well, for they are your mothers, daughters, aunts.
The rights of women are sacred. See that women are maintained in the rights assigned to them.
Heaven lieth at the feet of mothers.
and im slightly busy at the moment, but this site:
http://ebrahimsaifuddin.wordpress.com/2006/10/03/refuting-verses-in-quran-insult-women/
answers all ur false claims.
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and david, im really sorry
in no way am i using ur site to “preach” islam. i just wanted to answer adina…i knw, a mega long post but, its my religion. and at the end of the day, islam does NOT abuse women, or women are not inferior to men.
tbh, i didnt bring up this women and men subject, adina did. and in a way im glad she did. the more i learn about islam, the more im sure about it.
i think ur an atheist, but forgive for “ruining” this post of urs. in future i shall keep my posts short and concise, hopefully.
“Habz, on this blog, people of either gender are welcome and treated as equals.” yes, so they are in islam as well [i really do not see the need of making this point]
“You raise an interesting point about the difference between religion and culture. Surely they are intertwined?”
no they are not interwined. religion is nothing to do with culture. NOTHING. culture is the thing that can be so wonderful as well as dastardly. religion has no bit of it that is dastardly.
yeh…and PEACE.
adina, good to hear ur reply, but plz, if u wanna go quoting from the quran, quote the full thing, from the ACTUAL holy book. not from ur sites.
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Habz, first of all , I apologized for my usage of the word “laid” and for mocking the Virgin reward which belongs to your ancient texts indeed, but which you seem to detach from. Hence I apologized for the mockery, eventough it refers to a real subject which you refuse to tackle.
However, I will never apologize for my ideas, unless they are proven wrong in reasonable terms. You conveniently tackle what you can argue as malicious, but you ignore the main points:
1. you claim women are treated equally in heaven . Show me the quote that proves that.
2. I question why merciful Allah condones slavery by saying a man can marry a slave woman..
3. Quotin the whole An-Nisa will only prove my points. However, you conveniently go to talaq.. just read An Nisa and you will see property and women are intermingled.. it is more a codicile of property (and Women) transfer for a man how to..
4. I am glad you acknoledge your own inferiority to man. You cannot carry bags, and you find crying shameful… praising the man as superior for thei ability to control crying.
I do not wonder then how deviations of religions came up.. with willingful slaves.. acknowledging their own inferiority, only becasue some 500 years ago someone stipulated that a guy should pay drawry and that impliedly means that for millenia to come.. women must be considered half the worth… of a man..
You got some reason there, if you indeed apply a womens worth by the law of 500 years ago, but not enough reason to convince me and any intelligent woman, how fair and wonderful your law is…which you have repeatedly tented to do.
Also, accusing me of starting this religious diatribe is unfair and cowardish, just read David s original post, and who started preaching or talking about islam and how wonderful and unquestionable it is..
Hence.. Prozelitism is what you do, when people talk about pope, and suddenly you start bringing in a non related subject, empahising it’s qualities.
You make little sense. My sources may be incomplete, and believe me, I use my time for better purposes, a law is as alive as it s practicants make it be,.. and i ve had enough of witnessing it’s benefits in real life, for me to go dig in dead scriptures further.
But if you still think you are beholding God’s will and truth, please explain to me to the point, the points that I have raised above, without depicting to me how the morphet lived, and preached, as you have not been there yourself to witness it with your own eyes. Stick to the text, and prove me wrong if you can.
Regards
Adina
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Ah, one more thing. To quote you:
“1. Some Quranic verse is straight forward, some needs explanation.
2. We must know the background of revealing each Quranic verse.
3. One Quranic verse explains another verse. Hadith also explains the Quranic Verse. So, no one can come to a conclusion from a single verse
”
Oh really. So easy.. so when the quoran says : 4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them… HAHAHAHAH only if a guy is paranoid and he FEARS that the woman may think of herself too highly.. he is allowed to HIT HER by law SPECIFIC ENOUGH and without needing to go trough pointe one two three..
although, convenient enough to find the 1 2 3 excuses… so convenient.. So whenever someone raises a question is : 1. because he is ignorant of the whole quoranic scripture
2. because he did not understood there is some deeper 500 years sgo background to it..
3. because he misinterprets it..
Oh God.. Isn t this the way any criminal is justifying his own misdeeds? Oh.. you don t know the whole story, Oh I ve not been quoted properly, Oh there is some background to my crime…
THAT IS A COMPLETE QUORAN TEXT
IT IS NOT MY SITE
And once more, you are a hypoctrrite: when people talked about pope, and another religion being exploitative.. you popped up with ah guys, Islam is perfect.
Good for you.
Keep to islam. And stop convincing others how great it is, unless you do it for the reward promissed in the pyramid system.. Nobody forbids you to believe in it. But better find some more intellingent excuses than 1.2.3 to the fact that your text speaks loudly about certain facts to which there is no excuse.
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Last one , promise:
I doublechecked, just to make sure, as you almost made me doubt my sources.
Here it goes, full quote. And only an idiot would need more explanation for this.
Chapter 4: Surat An-Nisa (Women), verse 34-35
Translation:
(34) men have authority over women because Allah HAS MADE MAN SUPERIOR TO WOMEN , AND BECAUSE MEN SPEND WEALTH TO MAINTAIN WOMEN. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen (parts) because Allah has guarded them. AS FOR THOSE FROM WHOM YOU FEAR DISOBEDIENCE, ADMONISH THEM AND SEND THEM TO BEDS APART AND BEAT!!!!!!!! THEM. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Allah is High, Supreme.
End quote.
Women has to obey.
Because ALLAH HAS MADE MAN SUPERIOR to woman.
AND because men maintain women..
Hehehe.. AND .. notice the AND. It is not BECAUSE (as you claim), it is AND BECAUSE.
But firstly, man is decreted superior, apriori.
And then only if a Man FEARS that she may disobey him, he must BEAT HER.
DO we need translation or more background to this? Really….
Maybe you are maintained by a Man. I am not. Maybe you are inferior as you say to a man because you cry.
I am myself, and continue to be myself, as I cry.
Maybe you are inferior as you say, as youcannot carry so much bags.
DO LESS SHOPPING then, and maybe you will regain your dignity and equality as a Human being, with your strentghs and weaknesses, with your ugliness and beauty, with whatever you are, without having to consider yourself inferior to man as you chose to,.. or to be beaten by the book and be worth half of a man because allah said so AND BECAUSE someone used to pay drawry to marry your gran gran gran gran gran gran gran gran gran….gran mother..
Pitiful women the ones who declare they are equal while stating that crying is a shameful weakness. Emotions is what makes us alive. The modern society declare emotions shameful feature, as do fanatic backdated unintelligent book followers. And the barbaric societies which you so much praise, contradicting yourself, as CULTURE AND RELIGION are intermingled here and there and everywehere…they have highest rates of sodomy and child abuse and neglected women, based on your wonderful law, because they themselves believe it is right, and fair, as the prohet comaded them to.
CULTURE AND RELIGION ARE INTERMINGLED, any person in her own mind can confirm this. Study literature, study artm, study history.. SEPARATE THE TWO if YOU CAN!!!! David s question is a good one, but I fear you failed to get it.
You judge some British as drankwards.. you know.. maybe they are more spontaneous, and more lively, and more truthful, and more free… going out, meeting people, opening themselves without worying to hide their shameful hair and features.. as on one hand you claim Allah aknowledges lust and will reward good men in heaven for it..so great of him… while on the other hand, he puts so much effort to stop lust here and blames the women and their “hiddent” parts for it.
funny, if lust is to be rewarded in heaven, what is wrong with lust here? Oh.. only under supervision of the all mighty, lust is ok then..
You make no sense girl..
No sense at all.
Although my only drink is water and I never ever drink alcohol.. or coca cola for a matter of fact..
I d rather befriend a drunken.. than a fanatic who lives (better said does not live) by a dead book…
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Habz and Adina. Once I was caught up by the delusion of religion. I prayed devoutly and thought about becoming a Minster in my Protestant Church.
Over a period of time, fortunately, my more rational mind began to ask questions. Gradually the beliefs I had began to erode. I asked myself questions like: if God made everything how come he created retarded children or things like cancer? How come there are so many Gods and religions, all of which claim they are the true way?
I understand how people can be caught up by religion and also how dangerous it can be because it stifles intelligence and logic. Under its influence people don’t look at facts but see what they want to see.
Until religion is challenged and banished, as Einstein said, we humans will forever exist in a primitive world of childish superstition.
Cheers.
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sorry david. funny einstein says that, when he himself was a jew.
adina, get ur facts right. just proves to me how little u know about islam. our final prophet came 1400 years ago…NOT 500 hundred as u (apparent knower of all) say.
also, islam was in fact aroung in this world, right from the time of adam. all the prophets that came, including ayub (job) musa (moses) and jesus (isa)—note in brackets are biblical names. they not necessarily came with the religion named as islam, but rather were teaching it, and spreading the pureness of it. david g, there is a difference between other religions, such as hunduism, sikhism, which believe in rather different stuff. but judaism, christanity, and islam are all abrahamic religions, and many ask? so what is the difference. according to muslims, jesus (isa) is not the son of god, there is no so called trinity, he is only a messenger of god. moses (musa) was also a messenger of god. and muhammad is the final seal of the prophets. we believe in the torah and injeel (bible) however these two holy books (along with the book of dawud) has been changed my man, and therefore these are not proper jews and christians, they are following false things. when the quran came, it abolished the previous holy books, and some verses from the bible still remain, where it is said that there will be another messiah.
there is a difference between other religions, and the three abrhamic religions, as the fundamental belief is the oneness of GOD.
so, can i ask david g, what dyu think happens after one dies?
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okay adina…ill leave u to it. ofcourse i do wish to reply, but im looking after my nephew and yeh, dont have much tym.
but u’ve takn my statements of of proportion, esp about crying and lifting bags. so once AGAIN, u apologize and do ur rudeness which can never constitute to a good debate.
yeh, my comment was to the post, it was about how our prophet peace be upon him, lived. nothing about “women inferior to men”
so yeh, in other words, u did start this. in reading ur reply, i see absoulute foolishness. u start the hijab thing into it now as well. i really would love to explain it to u, honest, theres nothing more i lyk that my religion. and i would defend it whenever needed.
in living in britain, i come across many confused souls. david g, and adina,
in different ways u both are.
but lyk i said, david g, it would be good to hear, what u DO believe in, rather than what u DON’T.
http://www.sultan.org/articles/god.html
^that site is good, check it out.
and adina, that site that i showed u, go on it, it fully explains that verse that
u feel SUPRISINGLY so strongly about.
and u seem to not hav replied to all the sayings of the prophet peace be upon him that i had written. were u just far too surpirsed as to how merciful our religion really is to women?
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and yeh..cal me a fanatic, or whatever other crap u want, all i can ask is what u’ve based it on?
i mean, all i believe is that i dont need to be practically naked to be “free”…u’ve missed so much of islam its unbelievable.
i will post a proper reply adina, answering ur “concerns”
but its a sunday here, aka “day off work “
therefore im slightly busy. but i will reply to ur EVER so polite post.
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For someone with so little time, you wrote lot. why did you write three posts to say you won t have time to reply and describe to me the history of islam again????? Just stick to the points.. can you? MAN IS SUPERIOR TO WOMAN. That s it. By your self admittance and by your law.
Woman is property. Slavery is condoned by allah. What else you want me.. to go read how he lived? yeah. I ve lost too much time on this.. and you are wasting further my time. I have lots of typos, errors, I know isalm came around 1500 years ago, gove and take.. and for someone who s calling the pope SATAN you have quite arrogant attitude yourself you know.. there are few million people who like you chose to believe in someone and something else.. and you qualify the pope as satan and yous start offering alternatives shamelesly.. in your own belief.
Maybe we don t care, and we don t want to hear further.
but to you, when you have time, please share with our friends here what are your religious practices to render an animal eatable by your law. How you murder that animal, to render it suitable to your law. How is the cow let to bleed to death, in agony,… for it to become “pure” to your taste..
dear David, I thank you for your patience to us. habz is challenging you,.. what will happen to you, lost soul David, and to me, lost soul Adina.. after we die? If Habz won’t save us.. well dear David.. I have no clue what s gonna happen to us. But for sure, you will miss the opportunity to get laid by Virgins in the islamic heaven.. As for me.. I ll probably burn to hell in all the avaialable hells..
I believe my soul is something beautiful, in the hands of a superior destiny, which cannot be comprehended or legislated in human terms. to fanatics who live by books, let them go to virgin f***ng heavens, Politely, and frankly. As it is stated. not my invention, so nothing to apologize for.
David, I also believe the level of civilization of a society can be easily and fast understood by the way they treat the “inferior” by human standards forms of life: animals for example..
Barbaric cultures think they re hell of a great, creating ierarchies, and slaughtering everything down the line.
HABZ I pity you, with your heavens and virgins and all. you enjoy your f***g heaven, because you ate rightly slaughtered cows..
I ll grow flowers, and enjoy the beauty of my body, the freedom of my spirit.. and the uncertainty of my death , happy and proud that I can cry and I can laugh, and I don t have to hide behind rules which I have not created, and which a fair God would be too above to create…
Let me be a lost soul.. As for your heaven, Thank you , No. You keep it. The price, giving up my individuality, my freedom, my intelligence, my respect for animals and “inferior” being is a too high price to pay. Keep your heaven. I think I ll pass.
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As for the comments of your merciful prophet, which you claim I m trying to avoid.. yeah, i ve read them.. Oh dear girl, You want me to be extatic because someone said: “Whoever hath a daughter, and doth not bury her alive or scold her, or prefer his male children to her, may God bring him into Paradise.”? HUH ? You want me to be extatic about that? ” hey people, don t burry your daughters” .. what kind of animals you need to teach and promise heavens to not to do that? Sorry.. you find that amazingly merciful. i find it absurd.
Further more,. in all you quote.. there is only : don t scold the woman, be good to the woman, treat the woman nicely, beat the woman if she is bad.. etc etc. .. i want to see a QUOTE , ONE SINGLE QUOTE, in which a woman is told: “Scold your husband if he does bad” “BEAT your husband if he does wrong” . Does she have the right to scold her husband if anything wrong from his side? No. There is no quote!!!
WoMAN IS PROPERTY TO MAN. MAN IS INDEED REQUESTED TO TREAT HIS PROPERTY NICELY. What is wonderful about that? what is to make me amazed at the mercifulnes.. of it? What is amazing in that? HUMAN BEINGS should be equal. There is nothing superior or inferior in anything. We are DIFFERENT. And a merciful god should know better than me about that.
I LOVE BUDDHA’s mind. Not the BUDDHA as a person, or his life or that he slept on a wooden bed, frankly i don t give a damn… I LOVE HIS MIND. To BUDDHA all and everything is equal. He is not a God, he only preached a philosophy of living in peace with the Universe (not with the inferior woman..). I am AMAZED at his generousity and cosmic spirit. There were many other amazing human prophets or simple individuals who led extrordinary lives. You re stuck with your choice. You are free to be stuck with it.
For me..Someone who gives laws on how to treat property and decretes this and that inferior to that and this fails to amaze me. Sorry, habz,. We have different tastes.
as I said. Stick to your beliefs, I have no intention to convert you to anything else, or to convince you to give up your religion. but stop arrogating yourself the role of deciding which religion is best and perfect.. unlike the pope which you dare to call “satan”..
How arrogant ARE YOU! Even before I dignifyu you with any of my words.. and now you claim to be misquoted and your words taken out of proportion by me..If you allow yourself to call pope Satan, why does it bother you that by quoting your holy book, I prove slavery and unequalness are approved in it? You can judge others. But you hate to be judged yourself.. typical. By the way, you say I m rude. Don t you find awkward that a holy book should be so busy with the subject : you can sleep with this, you can sleep with that.. a bit too much of that topic for my taste..
I can even emphatize with you that many arrogant people without taking the time to read or know anything about your religion will be rude and arrogant to you. I am sure you face discrimination. but when you call pope satan., you prove you are one of them, so why complaining? Once you start preaching your religion is perfect, be aware there are flaws in it, which even with the pretexts of 1,2,3 which you gave, will never be covered.. They will emerge. and intelligent people will question and prove you wrong. Then you ll deviate from the subject and come with other stories, accusing the attacked instead of defending the cause. because you cannot defend it. Because there is no ground to it!
I m not in accord with people who discriminate you. But believe me, I ve lived among the people of your faith for many years, and I ve been so so so discriminated as “woman”.. bad bad bad.. and here i learned a lot about the reality you preach so highly of.. What a life..
You are rather arrogant don t you think so.. to call people LOST SOULS.. just because despite the fact that you cannot prove your points, we don t believe in your prophet.. or your concept of GOD…
Maybe we have our own concept of GOD.. or whatever it is. Maybe it is a private matter.. That s why I say: fanatics are the people who preach something is good, defying evidence of the contrary which they cannot tackle, switching the subject or going around the bushes for hours of how prophet lived and this and that not directly related TO THE POINT OF LAW.
Stick to the LAW and prove it right if you can. As of now, you have failed. Cowardly even, i dare say.
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Habz and Adina, the pros and cons of this religion or that can be argued for an eternity. It is an exercise in futility.
People who ‘believe’ do not think rationally but instead allow theological fantasies written in ancient books to fill their minds. That is why I think religion is so dangerous.
However, if individual people want to believe in this god or that, that is their right. It’s only when they or their institutions try to convince others to accept these beliefs (or sanction the use violence to achieve their aims) that I draw a line in the sand.
The point of my post was to expose the hypocrisy of the Pope.
Cheers.
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Dear David, you have proven factually the blatant hypocrisy of pope. And I couldn t agree less with it.
I do not however agree with whom speculates on that from the “opposite” party, only to offer “better” alternatives, which they are not able to factually substantiate, just as you did.
We were challenged by HABZ , as lost souls we are, that we have no belief, and instead of telling what we do not believe in, we should say what we do believe in ..
Well I believe in the beauty of real life, and smell, and sound, and sight, and touch, and feeling, and sky, and clouds and music, and poetry, and imagination and… and I could go on forever.
My Self expresses itself Unrestricted by RULES, or codiciles written now or thousands of years ago.
My Self expresses itself Restricted by Self Choice, Awareness, and Conscience.
I ALSO BELIEVE IN MYSELF as CREATOR (what a blasphemy huh?) of my own existence, with every action and thought and feeling.
I DO.
And for all this to be viable to me, and for myself to be truly ALIVE, as long as it’s possible, and without desperate hopes to extend my existence selfishly beyond death, in some off-shore heaven …
for fear of non existence, I also believe in the peace and beauty of Non Existence and I accept that my individuality is not something that has to be eternal in order to be beautiful in it’s temporary frame.
I do not need to also believe in Tooth
Fairy, or some other invisible entity, in order to keep me in my place, and treat me like an ignorant child with do this and that and that, and hide me from my coward inner child, seeking for security and hopes of immortality.
I BELIEVE.
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Making critical comments of Israhell hasn’t done me much good either, David.
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Adina, we share many views. I particularly like the way you express yours.
“Well I believe in the beauty of real life, and smell, and sound, and sight, and touch, and feeling, and sky, and clouds and music, and poetry, and imagination and… and I could go on forever.” Beautiful.
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David, I really do appreciate the compliment. But the merit is not mine. Only a beautiful soul can resonate to beautiful concepts. The beauty that you perceive in my words is visible to you only because you own it within yourself.
I believe.
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oh wow.
ur here talking about fanatics, when U, yes YOU speat Y-O-U hav imprisoned hundreds (if not thousands) of people for sharing the same faith as me.
okay… so let me tell u wht i do agree with, a wife CAN NOT scold her husband, whilst a husband CAN. this does not mean that a man is higher than a woman.
and from ur two posts (or however many u’ve done) i can see why u dont hva a concept of GOD. yes, u confused soul, created urself. Ur gonna be nuffin after u die, just lyk wen u were born. or dyu believe in the “inhabiting another human” theory? all BULL CRAP.
A man can no more diminish God’s glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, ‘darkness’ on the walls of his cell. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain
i think thats absoulutely PERFECT for u. u sitting here, saying U made urself, aint gonna do nufin to GOD.
so yes, i will keep heaven, and u hav ur fun on this earth. for what, 20, 30 40 years? maybe just till tomorrow. because after that, U will hav to face sumone, sumone who is higher than u.
i would love for u to put this argument to him. tell him, how u love music, and poetry and all the other crap.
and theres only one answer ull get “GOD gave u that ability”
so u can call me a fantic, wen i haven’t even viewed my opinion on 9/11 or anything remotely connected to it. because next tym, austalia, or america are targetted again. that’ll be UR answer, u hav sum sort of craziness to call me a fanatic, wen im just standing up for my beliefs.
I dont even pity u, because u dont hav any bone of knowledge in u.
but in regards to ur ribbity rubbish
http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm
see that. and david g, i hope to meet u one day, INSHALLAH, in the hereafter, wen u actually do get to meet GOD.
u’ve explicitlu blocked answering my question?
WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU AFTER YOU DIE?
even thru all this, i ask GOD, yes, he is also ur GOD, to guide us all. if i’ve made any mistakes, that inshallah i am forgiven, and to bring u to to the right path.
ill end here, like u said, this has been very time consuming for me also.
“love ALL with sincere LOVE and CONCERN”
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Oh, Habz owner and close buddy of God, please enlighten us with the answers which you did not have time to give, because you were busy the weekend..
You gave up. Cowardly. As you have no answer. Why you torture animals? God wants the cow to bleed to death while screaming and begging for help.. for you to enjoy food? Why why why?
No answer. Fanatic. SHOUT AND STRIKE ME. ATTACK ME FOR DARING. AND FOR NOT BELIEVING IN WHAT YOU BELIEVE>
YOU CANNTO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS.
Hioocrite you find excuse1,2,3 to avoid the question, then you excuse yourself, you claim you re busy with the newphew, and you promise to answer the points later, and then when you have no answer you start attacking. This is FANATIC behavior.
YOU ARE A FANATIC.
I may even add, a stupid one.
why you promised to answer the questions and now you not only refuse to answer them, but you turn aggressive and just as rude as me, a non believer?
you are a coward. Curse us however you chose for not believing in YOUR GOD.
My God is a private matter. And as a merciful CREATOR he should be, HE LOVES POETRY AND MUSIC and that “crap” as you say.
HE LOVES THE BEAUTY that his children human create. He put us here to love and enjoy the world in freedom.
HE DOES NOT LOVE FANATIC RULES DESIGNED TO LIMIT FREEDOM AND JOY. GOD IS DANCING. GOD IS LAUGHING IN HIS CREATION. He s not counting and legiferating PROPERTY establishing who s superior to whom.
And if God is there, laying down rules like “you don t dig and put your daughter under ground, as only then I ll keep you in heaven”? what animals needs he to tell rules to.. as such? what animal will bury his daughter and he needs to be told by god not to do so? why can t you explain these rules? You give up?
And shout and curse and threat with terrorism (see your : when Australia and US will be strike you ll get your punishment)..
Well, another thing of your fanatism, you seem to be so afraid of God s judgement and not going to hell, that I m sure you live in a restricted fear,.. poor you may think death is something terrible if you haven t lived as a slave, by the rule.
Oh Oh Oh.. I m shaking with fear..
I m not afraid of death.
And I m not afraid to live.
If I were a guy, I wouldn t want to marry a sad, venegeful woman, with an ugly soul and spirit like you.. who wishes death to innocent people who did not kill anyone, just because they do not have her own faith.
You are A FANATIC.
YOU ARE A SAD, UGLY WOMAN.
I PITY YOU, and i wish you to marry one of your terrorists, I m sure he ll understand you.
P.S. Dear friends, be careful, Habz is threatening us US and Australia will be hit again one day by terrorists. Let s die freely and proudly. just as we lived.
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Oh, HABZ, you arrogant terrorist.
you DARE IMPOSE YOUR FAITH ON ME? YOU DARE TELL ME YOUR GOD IS MY GOD?
You dare sking for my “saving”? Oh arrogant terrorist!!! fanatic!
You dare say : “ur here talking about fanatics, when U, yes YOU speat Y-O-U hav imprisoned hundreds (if not thousands) of people for sharing the same faith as me.
okay… “.. I have imprisoned nobody, only the fanatics like you.
but you claim to be different..
HOW YOU DARE IMPRISON MORE THAN 2 BILLION PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN REINCARNATION AND CLAIM THAT THEIR BELIEF IS CRAP? “or dyu believe in the “inhabiting another human” theory? all BULL CRAP.”
You are a BULL CRAP FANATIC.
YOu are doing PROZELITISM. Trying to convert everybody to Islam, just as I suspected. Your true face shows. You are not innocently defending islam. you are propagating it.
How you dare claim YOU CAN SAVE ME by asking YOUR GOD to lead me to right path? Buzz off lady.
Go check yourself in some mental ward.
MY GOD is not YOURS.
your God gives people “gifts” and requires people to live only in his name, and praise him continuously, and limit their “gifts” for a later time in heaven. Your God seems to have a money lender attitude: I gave you this, you have to use it as I say, or give it back..
With a limited brain, you cannot comprehend a real god’s dimension.
and YOUR GOD is NOT MY GOD, keep it to yourself, FANATIC.
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Habz, you ask what will happen to me when I die. Deep in the soil, I will find quiet peace, peace that lasts forever. That’s my idea of Paradise.
Adina, unfortunately the conversation you’re having with Habz has moved away from the topic and turned somewhat sour and now you are both trading non-productive insults.
As a result I’m going to close the comments on this thread and trust that, when you’ve both cooled down, you can simply agree to disagree.
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